Musky 360 Podcast Episode 237: Musky Ninja Tricks | Q+A
Podcast Transcript
Steven:
Alright folks, welcome to the Musky 60 podcast. J bird.
Jay:
Steve, Happy Memorial Day.
Steven:
Happy memorial. You know what I like? The spirit of the holiday. Oh, I've been in the. I've gotten the beating of the week. The. Last two days.
Jay:
But you don't like.
Steven:
The traffic. Ohh well yesterday. Was driving around in a washing machine. It was just so many friggin boats man. It was unbelievable and the wake boats and jet skis. You got freaking wake boats. You got. So, I'll tell you something insulting, right? These guys down there fishing with me, this is the only time they could do it. I warned them.
Jay:
Ohh, just slowing cross wake everywhere and then. Yeah.
Steven:
I try to avoid the holidays like the plague, but they want to go. It's like, OK. So, we we make this big run-down Lake and just take the beat, I mean you needed your muskie fishing helmet on for that ride, right? Get your get your mouth guard out. Right. But your everybody put your mouth guard in. When we finally get there and I'm. I mean, I've said.
Speaker
Steven:
Every word in the book, Jay, just just fricking fracking, you know. Oh, shucks, things of that nature and. I'm dodging people. I'm looking for swimmers, you know, just just zany, wild and wacky stuff. We get down this place said OK, we're past these people and I told them I said, all right, we're going to pull into this Bay. It all, it'll be chill. We'll get in here and fish. I pull around the corner and there's a pontoon boat with the guy skiing through the weed bed. Jay from my life. Like this, guys like we're. Life skiing through the weed bed I just drove 20 minutes to get to. I was trying to get trying to get away from everybody and he just comes through like a total jack hole.
Steven:
Look at me. Skiing.
Jay:
Ohh awful.
Steven:
So, so I'm so I murdered him. And dumped him in the lake. OK, I probably shouldn't say that on a show, but you don't know nobody. Nobody narced me out. I'm teasing. Wanted to know it was funny. It was just absolutely infuriating. Jay. It was hilarious, though.
Jay:
Yeah, yeah.
Steven:
And just running around, running amok and then people tied up and we're able to get the bites. But I'll tell you it's it's we've talked about in the past and it's it's going to happen. It's going to happen more and more and more of the warmer it gets boat traffic. If you've got something that's chopped up a lot of times, those fish are going to hold tight off the bottom. That's where they able to make work is like, OK, let's get down and dirty, right. If it's extreme lake or things that that are not typical on your body of water. If you see like a heightened level activity. A lot of water ways where they're the the fish are accustomed to a lot of boat traffic. They're they're they're not fazed by it, but this this was enough to sort of shift the lake up. We're talking Memorial Day weekend here.
Jay:
Right, it might. They might shift to like the bottom of the weeds. The outside of the weed. Edge versus right bottom.
Steven:
Yeah. Our first birthday, yeah.
Jay:
On that like that, where they're more accustomed to. It.
Steven:
Yeah, just, just they're. Yeah, they're going to exactly hunker down a little bit. They'll still eat. But it was it was nautical by nature. I'll tell you that much. I was freaking when we have the sore spot in my neck from whipping around in the boat, Jay. And it was like just flinging around like rag.
Jay:
We've seen that.
Steven:
Then today it was amazing, right? I actually called you. Launched. Everything's good. We're we're going. Got it. Gotta bite. Have one. Come off. You're like, OK, it's early in the day. We have another chance. And there's zero like chance of a thunderstorm. All these idiots are out on the water. Not you know, same idiots. Same stuff, right? Same garbage. Bunch of idiots out in the water. And here comes the cloud. Blacker than your heart. Jay comes rolling up.
Jay:
The forecast is 0% chance been there. Yes, been there. OK. And here it is.
Steven:
Yeah. And here came just. The most brutal *** beating of hail I've ever taken. I was downstream. We had to run for 30 minutes and I couldn't get past it. Right, and I was too afraid to drop by bike.
Steven:
Let it go. Ohh, just pound again. I got hit with hail so hard I got a nose bleed. Jay, that was cool. Right in a freaking schnauzer. Just freaking driving down, the lake like an idiot bouncing off the boat. What was awesome though is watching everyone else freak out.
Jay:
Yep.
Steven:
So like if you could imagine, imagine being the couple here it is the the, the lake and everything's the washing machine is just hell on Earth. They're and the be the couple. In the John boat with the. Five horse, right. Oh, let's. Go out and you see them and you're like, oh, you're a fool. Or the people and kayaks. They're people in kayaks. Jay, I saw paddle boarders and they're they're just getting annihilated.
Jay:
Oh yeah. Oh, for sure. So, you're just you're hightailing out of there, blowing by them and you're just looking back. They're all gone. Going.
Steven:
Like it was like running like you hear, you just look over your shoulder and see the people that are being taken down by the zombie horde, right? You know every man for themselves, mother, you know? So, I feel bad. But it was funny. I mean, there's people and John boats. Like I said, kayakers. Out. There, you know, half the people you pass are wearing Dolly Parton’s, the big orange life vest, you know. And it was a beating of the week, dude. It was. It was kind of spectacular.
Jay:
Well, yeah, no, it doesn't kill you. Makes you stronger, Steve.
Steven:
Yeah, well, you know what? You get what you deserve when you get out on the holiday weekend. And Speaking of the weekend, Jay, not the artist, the actual weekend. You said it's been wild and wacky. Up in the Northwoods, what's kicking up there?
Jay:
Yeah, well, more the same. Yeah. There's there's boats out everyone's. I mean, relatively good weather. It's not warm here, but it will rain today. Perfect fishing. Rain. I don't. Neighbor Steve went out for a while this morning before it started raining. And yeah, I I fished a little bit yesterday. Went to a little lake. Actually, it was extremely windy. You know my phone and I'm like, OK, I'm going to do some trolling passes on some, you know, weed lines here and. And I'm like, oh, man, this is. I've had enough.
Steven:
Yeah, that's what you're doing.
Jay:
Of this I got.
Steven:
To get out of here. What did you say is like 30? Yeah, that was real. Yeah. Real 30 sucks.
Jay:
Just awful, so yeah. Tomorrow's a new day so.
Steven:
Well, is it? Yeah. Well, I'll tell you. It's gonna. It's gonna be exciting to hear some more feedback. I've heard some people catching some fish, and obviously we'll get the feedback. If you didn't notice Josh Krieger's back in the saddle again.
Jay:
Yeah.
Steven:
With with the North Woods Fishing report, so you can get it there on the app every week. Basically, now until fall, it'll give you the heads up if you're heading to the. North woods. Ohh. If you're, if you're out there looking for a fat, musky and a cheese curd queen down at the local bar, Josh has got you covered. He does both kinds of tips, you know that, right?
Jay:
He does everything, yeah.
Steven:
He covers everything from big girls to fat girls. And everything in between.
Jay:
And heck of a fishing forecast and you know, recap too.
Steven:
You know what? What more could you? Ask for a.
Jay:
Lots of information.
Steven:
On on you know, it's like it's like like in country and Western music, Jay.
Jay:
Is it?
Steven:
Yeah, he's got all he's got. All your bases covered there. So, the Northwoods fishing report. It's on the app there. You can check that out. I'll tell you. I'm just rambling, but it's been a crazy week, Jay. I actually called Jay this week and there's there's something I just wanted to convey about observational stuff, you know. I actually called you. I called doctor Bob. Had some thoughts. Have one of the best days I've ever had on the water ever. Jay, you know that. I'll leave the gory details out right? It's not a. Not about this or about that or what happened, but just as far as like size, class of fish and the amount of big fish in a super truncated period of time, right? So stumbled into something that kind of blew my mind. And I I just. I don't even think I've conveyed to you yet, but. One of the. Oddest things that I learned this week. Is is. The importance of of understanding. What's taking place? I mean, I've tried to convey that we we need to understand what's happening. Pander wise, we need to have a a keen eye set on an understanding of the win winner and why, you know, and often for me. I'm I spend far more time dissecting a successful day than anything I'm not like, like reveling in success by any means. Like oh man, you know like and Jay, you can convey like me, and are mean. You're just ************ on the phone. I'm not calling you a good man, not kick some serious ***. You know, it's more about unpacking a pattern, right, or unpacking a scenario going OK how can I do this again? Or how can I have a deeper understanding what happened? And I'll tell you, it was interesting little thing. Got got three serious like. The ones everybody wants. In an hour. And. What I learned this week was. Crazy because I I. Finished this one little section this one day. And, well, let me back this up and start with this. Hadn't seen anything all day. Right. And it just is what it is, not move anything. It happens, believe it or not, I'm doing everything I. And I've done my 3-point bait check, which I literally did. We talked about that in the next level, muskie fish in the book and and how I get consistency going and understanding what's taking place. You know, you got to have something consistent. So, you got XYZ and you can add. Well, everything was pointing towards. And I'm not. I'm let me back back it up one more step and saying my bait check and conditions were pointing towards a very like mid water column bite, right? All the slow gliders. Maybe a Kraken and maybe a swim bait slow rolling spinner baits but not bottom type, but we should be able to. Kind of like act of muskie in the mid water column, right? That's going to. That's the the conditions are like kind of these big puffy clouds. This that the other.
Jay:
Ohh. OK OK there was.
Steven:
You know, like middle, yeah.
Jay:
It was partly cloudy and there's big puffy clouds. And what was the wind?
Steven:
Yeah, well, well, weather. Direction. It was blowing West or out of the West, but it was it was blowing. It was, it was negligible. It was. It was. When you ask about wind, but just one of these days where you nothing special about it, right?
Jay:
Steven:
Just to kind of day. Anyway, not making any. You know. I'm talking about man.
Jay:
Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah.
Steven:
You're not. You're driving there. You're not really excited, but you're not down in the dumps, you know? You're just me. What sort of like Jays prom date anyway, so I'm going over there. But something. That happened is something I never accounted for anyway. Corner of Bay. Kind of taking a a regrouping moment. I'm gonna gnaw on a sandwich real quick and and get my head straightened out. Right. Well, client client does their thing. They're nosing around. And I make one cast boom and get smoked. Jay. Right. Monster Boom in the net. Repeat it couple more times. A little more action. Wham. Wham. Wham. Wham. Wham. Wham. Wham. Something that I noticed when I came into this area, it was devoid of bait. There's nothing saying, hey, this is where you need to be right now. You know, I pulled in. Well, I scratched my head for a day sort of beat, beat my head off the wall. Called Doctor Bob, talked to you. I could not explain what it is. Happening now, why were the Muskies there? There were no bait. Fish. I scanned around the lake, couldn't find anything going on that made any logical sense as far as, like, OK, there's, there's crappie. There's blue gill. There's shad. There's walleye. There's sucker. What? What's going on here? Right. Why were they here? What was the logical pattern? Well, come back the next day. And I brought a small net, you know, like a pond skimmer net Jay that you clean a pond out or a pool net.
Jay:
Steven:
Got that back pay. I pulled up more big crayfish. Than you could imagine. And the only thing that makes sense with that bite that I ran into that Muskies were exploiting the space the friggin crayfish spawn. Right. And and it's something that that I think is often overlooked is the propensity to always be on what the easiest forge base is. We say it all the time at this point spawning crayfish would be the easiest pickup you could get.
Jay:
Yeah.
Steven:
And it's it's sort of tilted my head to go alright. Always having your mind tuned to what that that that easiest opportunity is and there's a lot of variables to take take take in consideration you know paying fish spawning habits, blah blah spotting habits. Blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah blah blah. But I bring this up just for the sake of keeping in mind in the spring, in the early. Reason everything has to go through its life cycle and at certain points. It's not exactly what what's kind of like the the historical. Pattern, right? The historical pattern. Of. Well, Muskies go out, they spawn, they move in, they eat panfish, move back out. No, no, no. This was obvious. These were these were well above just trophies. And they were exploiting that heavily as a pack, right? So, a keen eye on forage, a keen eye on what's happening because that would have been one of those days had I not kind of dumped into that which I did admittedly Dumped into it. Just pulled it in the Bay to eat a sandwich and then looked like a superstar, you know didn't deserve it, but it happened. But dissecting that situation and going back the first day, you know now mind you about giant caveat. You know, did I figure this out that day? No. The next morning, I did. So, yes. There's a time lapse, but I doubt all these things moved in there and bubble. But I had to understand what happened now. Yet again, I've learned something by going. Holy crap, there's a crayfish spawn which I never can. Of course, you have crayfish darting around left and right. You got scuds of food. Jay, easy to get right. High caloric intake. And of course. The biggest of the big Muskies are going. To use that.
Jay:
Hmm.
Steven:
And the only thought that I had and the reason I brought this up is is just just put it in folks mind where? You know an if you run into something, it doesn't make sense. Figure it out till you figure it out. There's there's a logical solution here. There's a reason, right? Followed by. Not everything has to be this simple forage movement of of one species, right? Because I deal with so many different species of fish, from shad to walleye and walleye sauger, you know, catfish, you name it, we got it. Trout. All of them. You're trying to keep up with what's the easiest, and there's been times where I go, man, I'm really not seeing the action. I want to see. What am I missing? Well, it could be crayfish, it could be heck, frogs, it could. You know, there's a lot to take in, but there's a reason there's always an easy forage base. And Muskies always tend to do that. And I say that. Because I mean, no matter what, Jay, you see the bug hatches, right?
Jay:
Sure. Yep.
Steven:
Bug hatches have? Yeah, bug hatch will happen. Well, the muskies are. Are they eating bugs? Well, probably little juveniles are.
Jay:
She's speaking with.
Steven:
But that's going to shift the whole food chain. There are constant food chain shifts. From from. Every angle, right, whether it be the Muskies responding directly to. That prey, or they're responding to things that are predating on something, right? That's kind of the test pattern in the spring. Once we get past that post, spawn Muskies are going to exploit that to the best of their ability. Just something worth looking at. Just a thought. You know, there's always a logical solution to why they were there, you know. I couldn't for the life of me figure it out. I I basically was like running out the next morning going. I have to delve in deeper and get my head wrapped around. A bit. You know, if if you're up against the wall, think outside the box a little bit and go. What is happening? Right. You've got just always got to be looking anyway. I'll shut up. Jay. What's going on there? There's one thing we should say other than the comings and the goings at the Muskie shop, which is, it's busy.
Jay:
Yeah, it is.
Steven:
You know it's it's freaking. It's biz tacular. Everybody's up there, Jay. How? How many? How many fat heads you sell this week?
Jay:
I couldn't even tell you Steve crappy metals. Crappy metals have been popular. Crappie fishing right now this last week has been. Great, you know.
Steven:
Fill the freezer, they say.
Jay:
In bass fishing? Yeah, but now muskie's open musky season is finally open. So.
Steven:
Do you want? The hardest? Again, the hardest part of bass fishing is Jay.
Jay:
Yeah, I know what you're. Going to say I. Don't think breaking it to.
Steven:
Your parents breaking it? Yeah. Telling your parents you. Yeah. Anyway, nonetheless, didn't know something cool. We have the Shimano Tranx 400 with a power handle. Explain what's going on there. Jay, for your, for your Tranx aficionados.
Jay:
Yeah, it's the standard gear Tranx, one of the best-selling reels out. There problem being it only comes with a paddle handle. You know the double deal, so you have them. We got them made with with power handles. The single power cranks which seems to be what everyone wants. So, they come with it and it's the same price as as the normal 1 so.
Steven:
Ohh yeah, but everybody buys the Tranx with the man I.
Jay:
And then you get a or look for a power handle if they're available, you know they're not always available from Shimano, so you want the.
Steven:
Well, I'm kind of feeling that part. I'm kind of miffed right now because all my my four hundreds have after. The market and let tell there because you get the only time you get a power handle is the the high gear.
Jay:
Correct. Only the. Yeah, the the high gear, right? The one that has 40 inches per crank. So that's a great solar too. Great reel.
Steven:
Yeah, but I hate that.
Jay:
Do you prefer power handles on everything now?
Steven:
Ohh, I freaking hate paddle handles now.
Jay:
Even the little wide ones.
Steven:
What do you mean ohh now.
Jay:
You know, the ones that have a good width to them, you know like.
Steven:
I do. I hate them. I just do. I mean, I hate to say that that's just where. I'm. At it is it is it. I even when I was throwing the the.
Steven:
Abus right? That's crazy. Like the the proliferation of. Of super reels. Basically, I mean Jay, if you think about it, when we started the podcast, it wasn't the craziest thing on Earth to be thrown in Abu Garcia a still.
Jay:
Yeah.
Steven:
I was on the cusp of it. I had like some Revos, but you know, now it's like you got to be throwing. A super. Reel. Even when I was throwing. The the round reels, which were the which was standard forever. It was like wearing a potato off your belt, Jay. It was the fashion of the day. I had a power handle on those, but would make an aftermarket power handle. I got used to that. I can't stand paddle handle. Some guys swear by them. I don't know. What do you do? You what do you prefer? Do what's on yours? Do you have a power handle on yours?
Jay:
I mean, really, I've got a dial with the with the power handle. But I mean, you get used to it. You know, fish for for 5 minutes if you're not, if you're used to paddle handles. But I kind of. Like this but.
Steven:
I'm just.
Jay:
There's there's a balanced thing too, you know, it's it's just, I don't know, it throws it equally off on the real, you know, it's just like all this weights on one side. But if you got a really wide paddle handle, I would probably prefer that personally, yeah.
Steven:
What with a PAP. Really. I don't know, like when they're counterweighted. I can't see I'm sitting here. I'm looking at that, that, that there's a cool new reel and something I'll say. This is gear wise. There's the new dial of the 500.
Jay:
Yeah.
Steven:
Right. I just shot Jay. Jay's working on the edit for the first video of. The. Year and I, yeah.
Jay:
They'll be coming off soon. Steve. I've been working on that all weekend or else.
Steven:
Well, I got another one worked at another idea brewing here, but nonetheless I've got that real and I think I can't see it. I'm so blind it's ridiculous. But that.
Jay:
3500 or.
Steven:
500 yeah, but I can't. I can't tell if it's counterweighted. I like the power, power, power handles that are counterweighted. Like, my favorite reel of all time is the Abu Garcia Revo, the old ones, the white ones, right. Can't get them anymore. There's your antiquated at this point. I really like that 500 though, because I never liked the TRANX 500. It's just too big of a platform for me. That's just too big of a real right. I'm just like.
Jay:
Yeah.
Steven:
This is just over the the top. Facing us, that dial was pretty interesting. It's it's about the size. If you set them side-by-side, shade, it's like a tick bigger than a Komodo. Believe it or not, like the you know, the Okuma Komodo, like the 400 size, which is a big real yeah. Just getting lighter. That's the one thing too is if you pick up the new reels, I don't know. I'm going on real thing, but if you pick up the newer reels versus like my Revos or the old beasts or like the red beasts.
Jay:
Yeah, it's fairly light reel for its size. Yeah, they're just.
Steven:
You got. Whoa. That is a whole different animal, but. Now that's cool stuff. You got the power handle on that. So no, you don't have to buy a power handle. Now, what do you know? Just do that. Yakety. Smacky. The other thing that's of note. Bunch of Lake X’s in. You can still get your hands on that. I only mentioned that because it won't be long till it's all sold out so that.
Jay:
Yeah, yeah, they go they.
Steven:
Always go. They go fast.
Jay:
And they take a long time to get and we got another shipment in. I wasn't thinking like Thursday or something like that, including some cannonballs.
Steven:
There you go.
Jay:
The rare yeah, the the biggest. Well, not the Cannonball Junior, which is awesome side. The cannonball. All 9.2 oz. I mean, you should. Awesome wave big water bait.
Steven:
The cannonball. Whatever it is, the 11 inch. I'm telling you right now, I have a cannonball junior. It's sitting here in the bait cave on the wall. And it's been it's caught fish. The junior right. The cannonball. I have seen it get blown out of the water. They catch fish? Yeah, I I wouldn't recommend it for Three Lakes Chain Jay. That would be. You know, I wouldn't take it to Webster in in Indiana, but if you're fishing Canada, Canadian waters and and some big fish water, it's worth giving a look. So, let's go anyway. Goodness gracious. Down the proverbial rabbit hole, Jay, let's get to some Q&A here. Cover some stuff, guys. Got some questions. We got some answers, Anthony. Hey, guys. I'm wondering when and why you would use the tube, grub or paddle tail with the Kracken. And are there specific conditions or scenarios that you feels like one option would really show?
Jay:
Sure. OK.
Steven:
Time I should also be able to get some fishing in soon and can't wait to try it out. I'm also psyched about the. New format. If it is cool. That's awesome. Yeah. We're we're as far as the videos, if you didn't hear last week's episode. Not worried about doing doing weekly episodes? We're going to try to do monthly or bimonthly like. Not bimonthly, but one-to-two-hour long videos, a month of some serious stuff of how do we catch more fish? So, kind of we.
Jay:
Yeah, yeah, I like.
Steven:
Podcast in Action, where it's like Jay's working on one spoiler alert, but it's a rubber breakdown where, you know, I get in depth, but we do something. I don't think anybody's ever done in another video. Won't say what. That is right.
Jay:
Don't spoil it. Don't spoil.
Steven:
It, but we do some interesting things. Is there? And and just going to take things in depth. So just to help help you catch some more fish. OK, so thanks for that. All right, so there is the Kracken and soon you'll be able to get the add on the grub tail so. With that, they're all. It's three different entirely different scenarios. Right, so the grub tail makes it very all on. And I'll tell you my inspiration for that was the the Phantom hard head.
Jay:
Sure. OK.
Steven:
Right. You can't get it anymore. The Kraken just kind of loves that big grub tail on it, which is like a bulldog Medusa alternative. Right. It's a poor pass back. So poor pass pull. Pause. Ripping it like you do. A big rubber bait. Where obviously the Kraken was originally designed to have the two base skirts so we're going to work that on the deep edges. And the tube up and down fashion. Then the GRUB tail will be pull pause like a bulldog. Medusa. All your other stuff. And then the paddle tail, the round body of the Kraken and eats it up alive. That thing just rolls. You know, everybody talks about belly roll. On on, you know, on swim well swim baits I'm getting that because.
Jay:
Crankbaits especially.
Steven:
Panels. Oh it's. You could build it all this thing just rolls great. It's got a really nice wobble to it, like a fat almost, you know, way more swing than any other plastic swim bed off thing. So, you got the big plastic rear part, but you have the hard plastic front. And that was just kind of like, OK, well, for doing this other stuff, what would happen if. That was literally how that happening. Well, there's only so many rubber baits, so it's kind of a going to turn into an all in one. To be honest with you, and it was never the intent that Kraken supposed to be a tube. Ask that up and down motion, but just the round platform and the adjustable waiting really turned into something unique, even well, so they're coming here soon. I know that much. I don't know when you know Livingston will get on here at some point.
Jay:
Yes, she did.
Steven:
But. You know when to use them. I mean, it's going to vary. I mean, if they're on, if they're. On pull pause jerk baits. I'm going with the grub and you know that deep probit of nature of the of the up and down tube thing. It's going down the deeper edge where pull Pulse will be like deep but not completely deep in your paddle tail. Heck of a follow up for Bucktails. And the thing with the cracking platform is you can adjust the weighting. So basically, anywhere when I was prototyping all this stuff. I had three of them running at a time over the winter. Right. So, I would have one person on the paddle and one on a grub and one on a pure up and down, yeah.
Jay:
Oh, oh, I see what you're saying.
Steven:
- And you basically had to spread from top to bottom, yeah, and get smoked and and like I said, OK.
Jay:
Wow.
Steven:
Instead of owning, it's the same crap I do with everybody, and nobody's caught on. Buy one bait and you can fish it in any scenario because I'm sick of having 4 trillion baits in the boat, right? What's annoying is a guide, and more so than anything. As you find the pattern, but you've got one of them. Right, we got one. Or or and it gets torn up or you lose it and you're like, you know, but you might like, let's. Yeah, you go. Oh, they're on, you know, big rubber. But I'm not gonna name names, but they're on a big rubber bait but it needs extra weight to get it need where it needs to be and you lose it.
Jay:
Right that scenario, absolutely. That is the lion guides, yeah.
Steven:
That tears up, and now you're just. Crude with the Kraken and is like I can add weight, subtract weight and sort of cover anyone in the water comp. So, if you're doing what we should be doing and fishing intelligently and thinking about. All the factors reading the water to the seasonality, what's going on with forage? You can dial this thing in to where Muskie should be. That's the trick. So, you're basically, if you've got a cracking already here shortly you'll be able to grab some extra extra tails and turn that thing in the paddle tail. Now the cool thing is look with the when you run it with the paddle tail. That's a that is the biggest the paddle tail, like the actual round section. The back section of the Paddle tail is the biggest paddle tail in the market. So, you know, there you go. It's a.
Jay:
That's an advantage too, Steve, with in terms of, you know, being up the you know up the up the Creek without a paddle and it's just like all they really seem to be on white and I just got bit off, it's just like you know get the box out, you don't even have to take the bait off.
Steven:
That's a big thump, yeah. Yeah, just put the thing on there.
Jay:
Place the tail here. It's like here. Take that black tail off here. But try this white. One you know it.
Steven:
There.
Jay:
Seems to be.
Steven:
Getting looks have a have a handful. It's cool. I've gotten feedback too on people in the cracking that have already caught fish right cause. You know, yet the north is opening up, but everybody else South of you has already been fishing. We all know that, right?
Jay:
Steven:
And guys are like I've caught four or five fish on Kraken and and I haven't replaced the skirt and I was like I told you, I told you they don't tear the skirts up. Hardly ever they head shoot the thing, right. So, you get a lot of verses. Building, I would say the only thing with the grub tails and the paddle tails. I mean you're not going to just like interchange them without gluing them on. If you're going to take them on and off. You know you can use it little bit of adhesive or a little bit of this, but you know once you get it dialed in, just glue it on exactly how you want it and keep it on there. A real red if you're really exploring. And you're like, OK, I want to try all these in one day. A clear zip tie, OK. You can zip tie the skirt to the body with a tiny little zip tie instead of gluing them on, and then you know that might be Podunk to some, but for me I'm like OK, I want to fish this like a tube, but I want to take that tube skirt off and maybe later I want to fish it like a paddle tail.
Steven:
Well, you just clipped. The zip tie and you have no adhesive, so you're not tearing that skirts off.
Jay:
And then you can do the tube skirt both.
Steven:
Right, they need to do the tube skirt. Boogie anyway, Steve Marino says when trolling and you get a fish on do you kill the engine? Keep going forward or put in neutral assuming 2 poles in the Lord. What I typically do is I scream at Jay. To put the S and boat. In reverse put the vote, remember that.
Jay:
You had a super hog on Steve.
Steven:
I had a. You're excited, and Northwood super hog on thought. It was in, in neutral. Where I what I want to do is I want to have the strike. Acknowledge the strike and then put it in neutral, right?
Jay:
You give it.
Steven:
A surge? Well, that's where I'm going. That would be at my average trolling speeds three to five, right? He he's got it. You got it hooked up.
Jay:
Or is it dependent on on the rod band? OK, go ahead. Yeah.
Steven:
Sub three. I'm going to surge. Mm-hmm. He could grab the bank. And now I need to move it and get hook penetration. So, you know, 3 miles an hour down. I'm going. I'm going. Boom, Sir, surge the thing forward. Right. Force the bait. The boat forward. That's going to ensure some hook penetration into neutral. Right now. I always leave the boat on or I don't kill it, right. Something I've been doing for the last four or five years, I think. I always troll with my trolling motor down. OK. I think maybe in some videos I haven't. But I try to. Don't don't crucify me if I you're well and when episode 36 I I noted as the two-minute mark you turning middle and then whatever. If if I've got a big spread out, you're saying 2 poles, man. Not a problem. You know, it's not uncommon for me 68 rods, whatever, whatever, and get out there, you know, 2/22/21, whatever it takes. I'm. I'm going to have my trolling motor down, so I get the fish. The clients got the fish. I can hit the trolling. Motor in like. Two, like a real low. Speed at least keep the boat's trajectory going the same way, so we don't get the fish. And then I have like the biggest. Cluster of all time. Right. UM. Something I'll say is this is how we turn so. Once I've gotten the fish and I know I've got a good hookup, so we're going. 3 1/2 right Jay three and. 1/2 to four. If the fish hits, I want to turn into the fish, not away from the fish. Correct? Right. So, don't. Don't like he hits and he turned the boat. Say the the fish hits on your port. Hands port side. Right. I don't want to turn to starboard and then put in neutral. I I just want to like, make sure he's hooked up and then turn into it because you're both going to slow and drift, right? You're not going to come to a dead stop unless, like the waves, you're you're you're going into oncoming. Waves. So, I try to turn into them after I know I've got a good hook up and and leave it in neutral. I've seen guys in the past, you know, they'll they'll keep the boat in gear or in a lower gear and that's fine. I usually don't. I'm I'm not looking to run ashore. You know.
Jay:
Yeah. And they're, they're, I'm sure they're thinking keeping the line straight that this is multiple line people probably in that.
Steven:
So. Yeah, two rods. Yeah, thrown in neutral.
Jay:
MHM.
Steven:
You know, if you got 2 pumps out of him, throw a neutral, right? And if you're the below those average speeds, you know going up, you hitting, that's kind of hook set?
Jay:
Hmm.
Steven:
Juicing for a second later I go. That's all it takes. Right, I've set the the hook with the boat and there's lower speeds, and there's at least driven at home. I can't think of surging the boat in slow speed trolling where I've like not gotten the fish. Right. So that that's something to keep in mind. But yeah, uh, put in neutral. I like to. I like to have the engine still on in case we, you know, we drift into the shore or something stupid. So, you got that down. Preferably have the trolling motor down. If you've got a like I said, a serious spread going above 2 lines, having the trolling motor down to just keep that thing going straight, you know is is is pretty important. So, you don't, you know, you victory followed by like, the biggest mess of Bates you've ever seen in your life, which it doesn't matter. That's one thing, too. I see it with clients all the time. They're always like, shocked how unfazed I am when things go wrong trolling. You know. And fishing as much timber and rocky cover as I do. Bats will bang and then they they go sideways, they come up on their side. You know, things happen and they'll fall up three baits and, huh. Hold on. Put the boat in for it.
Jay:
Yeah, right.
Steven:
And just leave it on and then, you know, cut them out. Start fresh takes 5 minutes, and you're right back in the game. Don't let it beat. You down people are oh, I. Failed my rods, man. Who cares?
Jay:
Yeah, it's going to happen. Yeah, it's just part of it.
Steven:
Like it's like. Picking weeds off. Yeah, like if if you get frustrated. I've been fished with guys. Like, what did you expect? We're throwing blades at weeds, dude. Frickin weeds. You know, don't get mad at it. You know what I'm saying? It's just like, it's like going to Chuckie cheese and ********. The place smells like pizza and rats. Their logos are rat and they make pizza, Jay. What are you going to do? Don't be shocked. No, Jay. Most people don't know. That's Jay played in the House band at Chuck E Cheese. Anything else?
Jay:
What was the band's name?
Steven:
****, I can't remember. I can't either. I'm going to Google that real quick. OK. Yeah. Check it out. Chuck E Cheese band name.
Jay:
With a lot of bands.
Steven:
OK, not just make-believe Ben Cheese, Chuckie cheese or showbiz pizza down as much as make believe. Ben. Jay, weren't you on or were you on sacks in that band, I believe.
Jay:
Altos.
Steven:
Gotcha. Ohh my goodness. Anyway guys, you can JJ ate a lot of pizza in the 80s and.
Jay:
Jay Bird and the monsters.
Steven:
Chambered and the monsters neat that he used to let him sleep in the rat costume during the winter because it got cold and you're think about that, you're going to your 10th birthday party. Let's take the kids to the place with the singing go grill and the rat that sells pizza.
Speaker
Good luck.
Jay:
Yeah, it's kind of worked if. You look at it that way.
Steven:
That's what you wanted to do. You wanted to touch dirty art.
Speaker
Yeah.
Jay:
You wanted to go there, junior.
Steven:
You want to go down there with that rant selling pizza and they got that singing monkey in the disco jacket. Come on, you little ****. Dad, got your dad? Got lit up on 6 pictures of Bud heavy and and Jay played in the ball pit. Oh, good times, he said.
Jay:
Yeah, that. Yeah, it sounds like it.
Steven:
Whatever. Sorry, Ronnie, I'm having issues keeping mustard. I answered this last week. I having issues keeping Muskies hooked on glide Bates.
Jay:
Don't recall. I don't think so. Ah.
Steven:
If we did, we'll do it. Again, I like the topic. Having issues keeping Muskies hooked on glide baits. I haven't landed a fish on it yet other than a big wall. I'm using 6-inch glider having great success getting fish to eat but can't seem to keep the hooks in them. Using an 8 foot heavy rod karate reel, 80 LB braid hundred floor, liter sharpen the hooks and then sharp it again. I just started this season with gliders, not using them in the past. Also ordered straight wire leaders. Maybe this will help. Any tips for hook sets keeping fish pinned on gliders? OK. Generally, when a muskie hits a glider, they they hit her pretty good, right? They, they, they, they'll shoot, they'll headshot. It pretty good. Dependent and you got to think about this. This is why gliders are tricky. If I'm gliding now, Speaking of playing in bands, Jay. What stage were you on? Right where you stage left or stage right? In the Chuck E cheese band. What I'm getting at is when you look at guys, when you look at it, we caught a stage, you've been to a concert at some point. When you look at a stage, they caught stage left or stage right, the orientation.
Jay:
Right. Yeah, that's an orientation of the musician looking at the yeah. Both both. To answer your question and I can't remember, but I believe I was staying left with the cheese band with the monsters.
Steven:
Looking at the space. Well, I'm deaf. I'm right. I'm 80% deaf in my right ear, so. I was always stage. Left. But anyway, think about this. On gliders they go left and then they go right which direction is your hook set my dudes. You've got to put this is something. This is a ninja secret and I'm just going to tell you. Your hook set has to be. Working with the direction of the glide bait, when it hits when the fish hits. If you're like me, I'm a left-handed angler, so my rod is oriented to the left side of my body. So, I hold the rod in my right hand. I'm turning the handle with my left if my glide Bay is going towards the right stage, right? If you will right and the fish hits. I'm pulling the hooks backwards. In some capacity. Ah, that one hit you, Jay.
Jay:
I wasn't listening. What?
Steven:
I what Jay was you were reminiscing about all the free pizza you had. Back in the. Night. Ohh man, getting the rat suit boy. Get the rat suit. It's cold out. Anyway, if you think about that.
Jay:
Yeah.
Speaker
Yeah.
Steven:
In my left handedness, if a muskie hits and the bait is pointing to the right stage right and looking dead at my bait, it went to my left and then it went to my right and he T bones it. When it's going to the right and it's sitting sideways. When I set to the left. I'm pulling the hooks backwards. Right. You have to respond. Commensurate to which way the hooks work, I always say this when people get snags. Hooks only work in One Direction. Right. The easiest way to get a snack out is get behind it and pull it out because when you apply force in the wrong way, guess what? It comes out. You have to be ready to set the hook now. This is an interesting factoid. An advantage of fishing shorter rods with glide baits. Was that? Nines, 9 sixes. All these long rods. I'm seeing it more and more and I see it in my. Own fishing that if the. If the hooks are pointed in One Direction, yeah, you could theoretically flip it up and get him in the jar or something. That nature. And and it happened and I'll catch them when I'm when the bait was pointing to the right and I set to. The other direction. Right. But when we had short rods and we were fishing reef hogs and think that you kind of set more up, right? So, try to set counter to which way the bait was going. So, if it's to the left, I'm in great shape right? So. If the bait if the if the bait. Zags zigzags to the stage left, which is on my dominant side, where the rod tip is pointed. I got him. If from the other direction I'm pulling the hooks backwards. So, you've got to be playing. You're.
Jay:
Potentially. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it it all makes sense, yeah.
Steven:
Well, you're not getting the same amount of force. Yeah, you're pulling. So, the bait is on the leader and it's setting the wrong direction. You're pulling it up more than you're pulling it to the side. If you think about it, right? So, we're out in the cast. He hits when it's pointing to the right. On the pause. Now we do have a tedium of slack in the line, which we pulled out. He's T boned. He's got a hold of it. You're pulling it up into the side, preferably to the side, which is actually driving the bait. More up and out. And I've watched it happen in Muskie's mouth and it took me forever to realize. Holy ****, I need to think about how I'm setting the hook on these things when it's on my off hand. Cut. So, every time it goes to your offhand side, it's a liability. Right, bats to the left. I'm good. Bates to the right. Left. I'm good off. Now, with that being said, when I have a fish following on glide back, guess what I do? Ah, I'll go. All right. There he is. There he is. Bam. Bam bam, bam. Bam, quick right, boom and let it sit on my dominant hand. My pauses are always to the left, so I don't do it. Extended pauses until the bait is pointed towards my dominant hand, which means my hook set has the highest potential of land of the fish.
Jay:
Yeah, that makes sense. OK.
Steven:
Ninja Secret right there. Can't believe I gave that one up. I shouldn't have. So, when I pause and guys that are glide beta, fishing, autos, you know and I know they hit on the pause for more than on their tree, right? Position yourself the best way you can. So, if you're right-handed Angler, it's the opposite. You know, I'm sitting here and the rod is in your left hand and it's pointed to the right aspect of your body. You know, the bait goes right. Left, right, is when you Pulse left, right, right, pause. Paws it on your dominant hand side so when he hits it and T bones it boom, your hook said is translated to the best possible way opposed to it being an offhand hook set where the hooks have to roll up and in anyway. Whatever. Or shoot them, Jay. That's your other option. What do you think?
Jay:
Yeah, I mean. Are you saying the first half of the cast, when you really can't? Visually see the. Bait.
Steven:
Ohh ******** account.
Jay:
That you could be.
Steven:
What you can OK bait hits, right? Think about this. So, glide Bates. When when, say, well, let's just take it down to one of my favorite glad Bates and I've got I've gone from. I've had wonderful success with Lynch chums and Chums and. And man, till I come back around and just keep throwing hell hounds right. I just do. So, a Hellhound or a phantom? It hits what I try to do is when it hits the water I'll pop it so I know. Which way it's going? And I don't go 123. Pause and go left, right. Right. You see what I'm saying? Left, right, left, right. Pause. A lot of guys count their their snaps. 123 Pals, 1234 Paws I go alright. The bait hit the water is going to the right the first time maybe right? As long as I see it and I keep it high in the water pump, even if you let it fall so the bait hits the water, pop it. Seeing which way, it's going and now. Remember which way? It's going so if it goes to the.
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
Steven:
Right. First it go right, left, right, left, left. Whatever right, mix it up. Try to keep an eye on that. So, I'm. You know. Always In Sync with the direction of the Bay so that I'm pausing on my dominant hand for the hooks up.
Jay:
Cool.
Steven:
Yeah. And now if we're fishing in appropriate conditions that are really good for glide Bates, Jay, guess what they typically are.
Jay:
What's that?
Steven:
Flat and sunny and calm. We need to get down dirty, right? So, it's easy to do.
Jay:
All the conditions right? So, it's a. Little bit easier to visualize. Yeah, right.
Steven:
Right. And and like I said that you're going to have to figure out it hits the water. Which way did it go? Usually, you can. Just see it in your line. Yeah. Yeah, right. You can tell in your line. I could you could put me on a glide back and I can tell you which way it's going. Like just hand me Jay, let's say theoretically, Jay made a cast and handed me a glide bait. So, you make the cast and stick your rod in my hand, right? And two, two works of that bait. Two pumps of that Rod, I can tell. You which way it's going.
Jay:
Yeah, and how far it's gliding too, sure.
Steven:
Right. Get in tune with that. And it's not some dramatic like your lines not slicing left or right, but your hook sets. You will be far better off. The other thing I say is is hit them. Hard and hit them fast. If we're fishing glide baits when we should be fishing them for typically colder water or negative negative or neutral fish, right? They're going to hit them and they're not going to hold on for dear life. A lot of times so that hit comes and you turn into them. We're talking about reels. I love fishing slow, but if a fishing glide. Right. I'm barely using my reeling hand, but I have a quicker pickup reel to pick up that slack when I need to and hammer them. Like spam, I'm into him all in one motion.
Speaker
Yeah.
Jay:
Some some of those have big bodies. I mean, you gotta move the body of the base and it's not like a bucktail that, you know, slides a lot easier, you know.
Steven:
God. Well, we're dealing with wood baits or resin baits right? So, I mean or hard plastic there, but you know they hit them, they T-bone them. If you think I just grab them sitting here inches I can reach my arm out during the podcast and grab glide baits. They're all near me here. You know, a little 6-inch Phantom me about any fish. T bones that it's no big deal, but say a a A7 inch soft tail, right? You need to move somebody. You need to get that hook penetration and get and get it driven in there. Especially wooden bats or epoxy baits. I feel like and I I don't know; I mean this is just down the rabbit hole. But hard plastic baits seem to move better through teeth because the finish is basically like a really thin layer opposed to epoxy baits. I've pulled teeth out of my sheets thick here and we're down the rabbit hole here.
Jay:
Which are stickier, yeah, yeah.
Steven:
But epoxy baits. Tend to like a hell hound. It's me. It's not hellhound, but. A hot tails. Or like a lynch Yum or some of the cool stuff we've got at the musky shop. They're great baked, but it's a thicker clear coat, so the it's like, OK, wow, that's my ball. Oh, there's a tooth sticking out of it when I bring it in, right? Yeah, I got drilled and. He got. I just didn't move enough. But he I broke his teeth off. Right. A little tooth fragment or something like that. I've had that happen, man 3-4 times. Over the years, where the harder plastic baits seem to not be as sticky and like you said, Jay, thank you for that adjective because that's I didn't want to say that, but that's kind of how it feels. You know what I'm saying?
Speaker
Yeah.
Steven:
Like I don't have. I have hell hounds where they look like they just nailed like Freddy Krueger's nails on a chalkboard where my higher end glide bait don't have the scratching to them because they don't slide as well through the teeth.
Jay:
Yeah, some of them have four or five coats of that thick epoxy to protect the wood, you know, protect the paint job underneath the wood.
Steven:
And it's not a negative or positive, just an observation. Like I said, when you look at the physics of how a hook works, buddy, if you're pulling it backwards into the side, essentially, if he T boned it, go in the opposite direction you're setting, you got to pull all the way across his mouth.
Jay:
No, it's just the way it is.
Steven:
Or up and up and in. Sure, it's grim. It's grim. Consider which way that thing's going and always pause on the side. That makes sense with setting hooks. Cliff, I fish metro waters in Minnesota. The current crazy stagger blades. How long will these be effective and what would be the smartest thing to throw since? Everyone else is throwing staggers Jay. How much longer do they have? Jay, I'm looking here on my watch. Is it minutes? Is it hours of the month?
Jay:
Come on now you know. Giant killers have always worked Mepps. Musky killers have always worked. What's the big dip? You know, deal with putting two different. These are just combinations, you know, and it's just like they all.
Steven:
All right.
Jay:
Put out different. I don't know. I put some I I did some underwater stuff of some different Bucktails recently. And it really boosted the volume underneath the water of some of them are quite noisy, quite clacky you could actually hear the vibration in the whole body of the bait. If you offset, you can feel it if you turn it up loud. Pretty cool.
Steven:
Feel the vibration, right? Check mark like Marky Mark and the funky bunch.
Jay:
Is that the ticket that is driving fish insane? It could be. I mean, when double 10s came out, there was something about that sonically, obviously that worked and they still work, right? You know, right time, right place. You know the waters around here aren't probably perfect as much as a lot of Canadian waters and a lot. Of. Northern Minnesota waters that are just pens are just. I mean, they still crush fish on them, but you know, people are just trying something different. You know, the different manufacturers like.
Steven:
Yeah.
Jay:
Your frenzies and mayhems and E socks is salt and just about everybody is is offering some kind of you know.
Steven:
Stagger. Yeah. Hooked on muscats the thing. Here. Here's.
Jay:
You know, yeah.
Steven:
Again, I'm just in a mood, Jay. Just in a mood, OK? Number one giant caveat here. I spend as little time as possible on pressured, highly pressured waterways. Right, not my cup of tea. I don't enjoy it. If you live in the metro and like Doctor Bob was up in that area and we've talked about it before. Where? Well, this is what I got right. If I if I wanna go out for four hours or five hours, guess what? This is what I have to. Fish, right? Yeah, he can trailer or whatever. So, if you're relegated, if things are seeing pressure. And people seem to be. Tearing fish up on it, there's some credence to it. Now, there's confirmation bias of of guess what, Jay? If you throw nothing but 8-9 staggers all year long, guess what you're going to catch. All your fish on.
Speaker
MHM.
Steven:
Here you go. Now here's a thought. What is a stagger blade combination 2 Jay? Young padawan.
Jay:
Offset it. I would say it's some type of offset in the in the center balance of the whole bait.
Steven:
Well, creating what a you're talking about. Yeah, from vibration, right. And a regular vibration. Well, what do we do? When? When 99.9% of Muscatine. We're throw bucktail. What do they do? They throw it out, and they turn the handle. Fast number one, right. Most everybody burnt too fast. In a regular way. When I've had fish that have come in spooky, let's say I've got. Oh, God, I did the last time I did this in earnest would have been. Say, like double Booker eights, right?
Jay:
Yeah.
Steven:
- Brought a nice one in as 41 or 42 somewhere in that ballpark. Whatever good fish on on Eagle River chain, right? Here's this fish. It's seen 400 Bucktails before. You could just tell it was just didn't want to do it. It was like it was into it, but it went to it. Well, how can we make our vibration irregular and different feeling from everybody else's surging? Once you have a feel for a bucktail, you know the limitations of of how fast and slow you can retrieve it. So. Bucktail blades. They open up, right? That's something we're all aware of. They open up at speed, they open, and they close. They're on clevises. Which are those little round horseshoes that they reside on. They'll have the blades to free swing. The faster that you're going, the more they open up, the slower going. The more they lay. That if you play with that and you surge out in this being real, real, if you're irregularly fishing a bucktail. How the blades are running is changing the vibration the entire time. Right.
Speaker
Yeah.
Steven:
So, what they've done with the blades, in my opinion, for what it's worth, the stagger blades have come up with a way to force a regular vibration for the average angler. Right. So, it's it's kicking around a little bit more, it's uneven, it's it's kind of this off kilter thing. So the Muskies have seen 999. Bucktails this year that are all going in a very even keel thing right now on a cast, we must admit that the speed is increasing at all times. If you're real a real evenly because the nature of a spool the spool of line is getting bigger and bigger and bigger regardless if you turn the handle in a very even fashion. If you turned it mechanically at a set RPM, no matter what the speed, the spool gathering line is going faster and faster and faster and faster actually. And referencing Doctor Bob, he did a health he did an article. If you've not seen this, to understand and calculate your reeling speed, it's on the app. It's phenomenal. And he actually came with equation for. But if you're reeling in an even manner, your blades are still speeding up, but there's nothing tremendously irregular about that. Over the course of, say, four or five real terms, right? So, from from the landing point, from the second they start in the water to the time that they end up at the rod tip is a different speed at an even reeling point. But there's been nothing highly irregular about. Right. There's been a pretty consistent vibration. Stagger blades are this lopsided thing that instead of this even conical kind of vibration coming off of them, they're slightly more erratic. So what they've done is they've made a bucktail that makes a neophyte we can angle or have a more erratic bucktail. Drive. So, to me, it doesn't matter what the blade combo is. If fish need an erratic bucktail retrieve, it's all in the hand. Bucktail fishing is the one thing I talk we him and hall about one thing all the time. Stop using your reeling hand right when it comes to rubber baits, diving your eyes baits, twitch baits everything. Stop reeling. All right. Bucktails are the complete opposite. Everything's dependent on your reeling hand. Right. And and Jay, it's almost like we wrote it, but we never think about things ahead we're talking about. Reels early and he said what handle you prefer, right? Power handle. Panel handle. I want a handle in my opinion, that translates as much vibration and a rod that translates as much vibration as possible. Right. And so, with the like the power handles have typically had. If you look at most of the reals I throw that I use all the time. They have a hard handle. I don't like the Eva foam if I can avoid it, right? Like the dial has it, that's fine. I'm ripping rubber. If I'm counting blades.
Jay:
It's absorbing vibration, yeah.
Steven:
Yeah, yeah. Rubber paddle handles absorb vibration. I don't need shock. Think about this. All this crap and fishing shock absorbing, that's vibration dampening. Right, comfort grip, vibration dampening. How do you know what your bait's doing? Cool.
Jay:
Good point.
Steven:
Comfy rubber grip. OK, so the grip of this rod is going to negate the feel and sensitivity of the rod that is paid money for. Fantastic, because I'm such a dainty, dainty freaking Princess. I can't handle some shaking in my hand, you know, go fish. Croppie, you lose. Egg. You know, I've got a. Ah, no, I want to feel it. I want to understand what's happening. Right. The more in tune you are with that, the more you know how to play with things. I am the most boring guy when it comes to bait selection. I am so ardent about this is the running depth of running. This is where we need to be at. I'm going to throw this all day long. I'm going to make it work right. Because I understand where the fish are and I need to trigger them, that's phase two. Most people are race struggling with phase one, where the Muskies phase two and what presentation speed and what vibrational profile is the the next hard part. But I want to have a rod and reel that translate as much vibration and then when we're reeling in Bucktails it's not. We're just talking about left, right, left, right, left, right, right, all that. And I'm sure there's somebody in your car listening this morning going holy crap, but you think about how the bait that you you pulled her backwards and upside down. All right. You're going to be better that way. The same thing with Bucktails. I want my rod pointed at that blade with the slightest bit of tick bend in my rod. Right. So, Booker had a really good tip long ago, and still it from him. If you're pulling double 10s to pull them with the real, not with the rod, right. So, take point it right at. I prefer to point my bucktail at a, excuse me, my rod at a bucktail. And lift just enough where I feel the vibration coming down the rod translated into my hand and hopefully into the handle where I'm comfortable enough that I can slow her down, speed her up, speed her up a bunch, slow her down brick and I'm pulsating the skirt and the blades the entire time, right? In doing that. Forget the stagger blades. I'm doing something 99.9% of guys are not doing with Bucktails. It doesn't matter what bucktail I have. Go get your MEPs giant killer, your eagle tail, back from this stone ages out and you'll kick more *** than these guys that buy 400 stagger blades. Who gives a ****? The fish doesn't. He's responding to I I think on pressure waters. The fish responding to and more irregular retreat because they're. They're definitely conditioned. And Metro Minnesota is not my area of expertise. That's why I defer to Doctor Bob, who has conveyed to me numerous times. Those fish, they want it, right? They want it perfect. And they want something different after they've been bludgeoned with stuff for years, right?
Jay:
MMMM.
Steven:
If you're fishing Bucktails to their utmost level of ability, you're doing something so different. Nobody else will get it. You see what I'm saying? I don't need stagger blades. Because who gives you?
Jay:
I yeah, out of the handful, maybe several fish I've caught in the last couple seasons on Bucktails. I can't think of one that didn't come after a surge, but it was in the. Cast or the figure.
Steven:
Eight. You look at something is is boring. Let's, let's demystified. Bucktails a little bit more here. One of the most. Boring to people, it's it's every muskie. Seen it? Booker 700, right? How boring. I'll take it any day.
Jay:
Sure. Of the week single fluted #7 blade.
Steven:
Right Bucktail every muskie scene one on the Eagle River and three XJ. I've watched Joe Booker smack so many fish. Do you know why he doesn't turn? He's he's. He's fishing exactly the way I'm telling you. He's got a feel. For what's happening with that blade at all times? He can surge it and slow it ad nauseam with No Fear of it collapse. Ever.
Jay:
Right, right. That's called dialed in with the buck table, yeah.
Steven:
Do you know what happens? That's well. And that's called dealing with a bucktail, which is erratic as hell, way more erratic than rickies, you know. Here's Ricky stagger blade. He's got a a 400 and the 12, right. And and we keep buying into this stacker bike crap. I'll take you to the mat. Anybody if you want to take that bet. It's not the blade combo, it's. How you fish them? Right now, the way everybody fishes them is throw it out, turn the handle. They're terrified. If the blade stopped, the Muskies won't hit. But they're not dialed in enough to be confident in what's happening with that at any given moment, they've not played around enough with it. The more you, the more you. Observe a Bay and you understand it, which is also too why? I'm a creature of habit. Right now with spinner baits it's self-serving, but I the only thing you're gonna see me picking up is the Steves meat grinder in the in the Steve Tailgater right spent the last two years with them. I know exactly what they're going. I can't say exactly ever. Sorry. I apologize folks, but I know exactly what they're going to do at any given moment, right? How slow can I take that bait? How fast can I take that bait? Most guys ***** ** the bed and go. I don't know. I'm just turning the handle. Well, when does it blow out? When does it roll over? When do these something weird? You know what's too fast for that bait? What's too slow for that bait?
Jay:
Yeah. For standard base, right. That's right on.
Steven:
Yeah, or a bucktail. There's a speed that's too. Slow for a giant killer. Right. And there's a there's a speed where it becomes a buzz bait, and it's running too high. There's also a think about this, there is a speed for something like a giant code is so fast.
Jay:
Yeah, yeah.
Steven:
That the blade cannot grip into the water, and now you're just dragging across the surface. They have tolerances. Every bait has a tolerance from too slow to too fast, right? If you take, say, like a slammer, fatty minnow love that bait, there's a certain point I I'm not doing this, but I'm just saying there's a certain point. If you reel it too slow, it does nothing. It just kind of drags forward, right? We're talking. You're barely turning in. OK, it's doing nothing. And there's a point where it's so fast it blows out on its side. If you're a troller, you know exactly what I'm talking about, where you'll go so fast with the trolling bait. It can't do it. It can't dig anymore and ends up on its side every casting bait that you have in your box. If you don't understand what its tolerances are, you don't understand what it's. A whole range of application is. So, stop buying baits and learn what the baits you already have can do. That is not endorsed by the Muskie. Shot. They probably get manifested that. You know what I'm saying, Jay? It's like there's so much they are opposed to. I've got this. I I've bought my new bucktail from Lucky's Bucktail. And they say it's lucky. Lucky assures it himself, right. Comes with his lucky face and signatures on the buck comes says get lucky. It's Lucky's Bucktails because it's this weird combo that's hot on Suckabaguma. Umm. No, it's it's application and and so learning how to master. Each bait that you have. Ohh I just said that, but learning how to to really master all the elements of every bait that you have. And understand what its tolerances are. Now you can make them do whatever you want to do where I don't need a stagger blade, I just go. OK. I know MEPs double eights like the back of me. Hand. Right. Those are my favorite Bucktails or a single. When I go to single blade, it's the booger 700. OK, I know it. That that's where I'm at. OK, how much weight can you add to the Bucktails you do you know that? There's a certain amount of weight you can add to a bucktail before it won't run. Do you have? A guess. Do you know that about what's in your tackle box?
Jay:
Or not.
Steven:
Right. You see where I'm getting at. It's like. Mm-hmm. Unlock all the possibilities that you already have. And look at it from that regard, where everybody else is going to throw it out and turn the handle, and they're going to, they're going to get lucky and they're going to, well, my, my metric for success was we fished for five days and we caught 2 fish and and all of that is bestowed upon this wonderful stagger blade design. Where we finally dumped into some fish. That were shallow, we fished shallow the entire time, and we did this the same way the entire time. And finally, the fish and our what we wanted to do and what the fish were doing finally lined up, you know, anyway. Wow rabbit hole and J rabbit hole Dan what?
Jay:
When that go ahead, Mary, you got. I was thinking it would be really interesting if a guy were to take like his his three most productive or three most three favorite based general. Generally, that you're running for Muskies and it's just like really getting tuned with those knowing the limitations of them. Like you're talking about. What's minimal? What's maximum speed? Adding weight, you know? Figure eighting. That is, and other things. You know, there's certain things you can. Bucktails are pretty easy, you know, granted. But you know, with crankbaits and stuff, glide baits. Ohh plastics. Of course. Of course, those get tricky and there's intricate little things you can and can't do when you Figure 8 know exactly what that thing's going to do at different speeds. Figure 8 and how much line.
Steven:
- Yeah.
Jay:
You need out, you know.
Steven:
Will it roll over in a Figure 8? Yeah.
Jay:
When it started, will it roll over? Absolutely.
Steven:
Which is yeah.
Jay:
You get that stuff down on your three favorite or your three best baits. You will fish more productively.
Steven:
They'd let me let you know we we've never really unpacked it this way, but it's it's true as hell. And the number one question I get asked by folks that have end up on my boat and we get comfy and they start asking. Stuff.
Speaker
Hmm.
Steven:
Does Joe really only fish his own bats? Yes, because he understands, not because he made them, because he's obviously incentivized to not fish anything else, right? Period. So, Joe has devised every way possible to make what's in his product lineup when he was filming for TV. Just kind of pseudo retired now just hanging out and doing what he wants to do. But he was incentivized to maximize his product lineup. Right. So, he couldn't go and grab. OK, perfect example. And there was one time. There was a podcast one time. I could taste it in the air, he wanted to say a Suick. Right.
Jay:
Uh-huh.
Steven:
He he just. I remember this years back. Actually, somebody wrote an e-mail too about. And we were talking about, like, this fall pattern. And he said, you know, when that's happening, I'll go for something that that plunges and comes up and I and the then he's talking about the Mac Shallow rider and how he put sinkers on it. Right. Well, at that point, he had to understand he could basically turn a mag shallow water with added weight and basically a pseudo dive and rise because he didn't have a diving rise in his lineup. Now that's an extreme case. But Joe fished his product line up to the maximum efficiency because he knew it inside and out. Obviously he had designed it, but he was relegated as he was in a box. Or you look at Chaz. Chaz Martin. I don't believe last time I talked to chase, it's been a minute, but Chaz and me are cool and I don't think he's fishing anything else. The chance. Maximizes that lineup because. Is. He can. Get it done with what he has and and it's not. It's not about. Yeah, it's not about augmentation. It's kind of interesting, like putting yourself in that box. I've been on Joe's boat enough to go. All right. We have the Joe Booker lineup. That's.
Jay:
Right, right. Let's see what you're saying.
Steven:
What we have? There's no running to the tackle store and buying this, that or the other, how do we make this work? Now do I like that feeling? No, because I there's days I wanted, I would have, I would eat my own arm off to have a glide bait, right. Or there's days I'd like to have this that. And the other, however. It kind of forces your brain to focus more on the retrieve than what the bait is itself. So, you learn all the intrinsic properties of this bait. And you know what it will do and what it don't. If you don't know what a tool was is capable of, how can you use it? Right. OK, give a give a caveman a hammer. He's going to pound her rock with probably the claw side like a moron, right?
Speaker
Ah.
Steven:
But it's observational. It's not exciting, but spending time with that, what will it do? How fast will it run? There are certain, you know, with the Titan, you can rip it as hard as you want. It will go down, you know, but there you can't. There's too soft for a tight hole. It won't go down because you just went. You you breathed on the rod.
Speaker
MHM.
Steven:
Everybody has a tolerance. Once you understand the tolerances, highest speed, lowest speed, what is in between, do you how much weight can I add before it screws it up? How much weight can I subtract before it screws it up? If I change the hooks, what does it do? Being observational, what the baits tolerances are it's it's limitations is as important as just going and buying a new bag. Period anyway. Whatever, Dan, I struggle with boat control. My jumbo. Any tips? I have a foot pedal motor but no outboard. Nailed it already Jay. He's got a foot pedal trolling matter, but no outboard, which means he has no what? Jay keel.
Speaker
Let's.
Steven:
In the back of the boat.
Jay:
Yeah. And the boat itself doesn't have a keel. If it's a John boat. Those things are. Yeah, yeah. They'll spin around on you. It's very hard to very hard to control. You're going into the wind with that. You know, if it's a bow mount trolling motor, that's one thing. But yeah, if you're going downwind at.
Steven:
A flat in the back. You get it.
Jay:
All or cross wind? Yeah, he's got a foot pedal.
Steven:
Yeah, he's got a foot pedal so.
Jay:
It's an. Art form, probably.
Steven:
In the front devise some kind of keel system. That will slow your boats, especially so we're going down the edge and the the winds blowing saying your starboard side and you're spinning. You're doing this stuff and you're trying to move forward. A keel will slow that that the way the boat will will turn side to side, right so. Guys that you know, I have a I have an outboard on their boats, you know, even if you have your boat say you have your, your outboard trimmed all the way up your boat control is completely different. Little trick, I'll tell you, Jay. Is if you're in, say, you're, you're in your Ranger, you're low, like me or whatever. And you're having difficulty keeping your boat straight, so you got a buddy in the back of the boat or whatever, especially guiding. I don't want the boat pitched in all. Screw you all the time. I'll make adjustments to how my wheel was positioned, how my outboard is actually positioning the water to compensate. So, Dan, you need some kind of keel system on.
Jay:
Sure, sure.
Steven:
The back of your boat. Excuse me. I've seen some Podunk stuff as simple as. Literally in a it's this is West Virginia stuff here, you know, making a a keel, you know, it's like a 2-foot keel that they're mounting in the back of the boat with sea clamps out of like plywood and a pocket.
Jay:
Don't say don't say. Out of a milk jug, please.
Steven:
That's how we juggling Jay, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't. Don't disrespect the ancient methods of juggling next week's episodes jugging for Muskies.
Jay:
OK oops, I missed it up.
Steven:
You know. But anyway, yeah, some kind of keel system will help you out. There's tons of cool things. Like I've gone down the rabbit hole before online of, like, all these. They call them tiny boat mods or John boat mods. They'll there'll be some tips and tricks on there. But yeah, I would make a keel out of wood or aluminum. Where to get your hands on and and make it where it's modular, you can clamp it on the back of the boat. And that will help you tremendously because essentially you got this subsurface resistance, right? So, the boat might be blowing, which is a little teacup in a storm, but that that kills going to grab more water and it'll keep your boat position way better for you, Sean love. To hold on. Ohh hey shot. I was trying to. It was just a a weird typo. Love the podcast Meow, Meow Jay. You know FYI your books really helped me up my game. Excited to start this year with all the new concepts. What you say is the most important thing to focus on during the early season. The old tropes quickly here. Warmest part of the lake. Small presentations. If they're not there, getting out to open water and throwing the first break. Right. Not being afraid to add rubber into that like medium size rubber and and really understanding how your shallow is. Is everybody going to fish shallower than you? How do these shallow zones connect to the outlying structure? Would get around it, Jay. Anything else you'd add for early early part? Of the year, slow down. Slow down. Yeah, no joke, Petrie. I love. I love show. I love shy fish. Pork ****. I love show. I pick. I fish Pike in Russia. Oh, so he spelled Ros. He's he's Russian. Thank you for listening, Patrick. But your talk helps. I've never owned a bucktail. Are they good for Pike? Oh, yeah. Wow, very cool. We get some, we get some euro listeners and I actually met 1. Jay was crazy when I was filming the big Nether Ones Pike Video, I met a guy in Amsterdam and and he brought me Stroop waffle and local Pepsis and parties fishing for Pike and Russia. Now you guys not might not believe this, but I learned it last year I was in Hungary, Jay. We, Larry had a distributor, a guy that sales tackle had never seen a buck sale, right? That is totally a North American thing right now. I think Savage gear is going to open that up a little bit. Petri, I would. I would have recommend checking out the savage gear stuff. You could probably get your hands on that pretty quickly. Obviously you could order from the Muskie shop. Pike love small Bucktails. 700 series spinner Bates, 500 series Booker Tails Catch the crap of them. Little Esox of salt with a single eight the. Maps or maps giant killer right stuff.
Jay:
Right. Stop. Fire. Tiger. Yeah. Orange chartreuse. Yeah, they they seem to love that. Probably in Russia, too.
Steven:
Throw it out. Hey, we're talking about Bucktails earlier. Throw it out. Turn the handle. Keep it erratic. But definitely, I don't think rushing piking to snub their nose to a bucktail Jay. You probably tear them up if if they've never seen them.
Jay:
Be devastating over there because it's huge fish.
Steven:
You could be this. Ohh they do. That's a whole other thing. But thanks for listening. That's fantastic. Next, Brad. Yo, *******. Thanks. Whoa. Hey. Hello. Hello. Way to make an entrance, Brad, we don't say the R word anymore. Jays mom gets mad when you point the obvious out about him anyway, I need tips for trolling Bucktails, mainly single and double blades. How do I hit my desired zip dips easily? And how do I stop lying? Roll love the show. OK, your desired depths weight. Wait, wait, wait. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Lead in front of it. I think it's a combo answer, though, Jay and some regard. Because stopping line or line roll is about a big swivel. You don't want to troll Bucktails on anything that doesn't have a swivel, right? Because the faster you go. If it's not a big quality swivel, the swivel will grab and the bucktail will start spinning your line when you spin the line up. Obviously it shortens the line. I don't know how much, but you know the yeah. Ask Bob. Bob, what is the compression of line of 100 feet with the Bucktail roll, right you roll.
Jay:
Yes, Bob.
Steven:
The line up. But if you guys have ever.
Jay:
He's out right now. He's got his computer out.
Steven:
This goes. According to my fingers. Anyway. If if you if you take this line and you roll it in your fingers, that's what happens with the buck tail. So, if you take a piece of line, hold it and you say your left hand and start rolling it with your right hand, it'll spin up. OK. So, we need a big swivel that can handle the job of trolling blades. If he's saying primarily eights, you know, or even bigger. I like the big ones. The 36-inch musky shop Fluro. That's a great leader Booker make stuff. They have big crane style swim. On them. Right. I don't want the cheapo swivels. They seem to bind more, so make sure your swivels are in good order for your your bucktail trolling clip on weights in line weights. I think another thing is this when I'm trolling Bucktails, I want long leaders so I can put rubber core on them way up close to the swivel, right? So, it's not problematic. So. It can vary so wildly, I don't. What is your target depth as a question? If you need to hit. 10 feet down with a buck tail. And we went the shortest amount of line out four ounces of lead. I told Jay on the phone this week. Dude, I've had crazy conditions and back conditions. I popped a fish with four ounces of lead in front of a freaking meat grinder this week. Based as dredging.
Jay:
That's a lot of weight. Yeah, yeah.
Steven:
That's a lot of weight, but OK, I could put one ounce on and have 100 feet of line. I could put 4 oz on and. Have like 30. You know better boat control, and I know where the baits at so hey, I need to speed it up and make it do this over this. This piece of structure or whatever that might look like, so yeah, lead, lead, lead, lead, lead, lots of it, the shorter the better seems to be the best in my case anyway, Jay, we've covered the heck out of some stupid stuff this evening. Sorry about the the glide bait rabbit hole and all the rabbit holes. But anyway Jay Bird, it's Memorial Day.
Jay:
Yeah.
Steven:
To celebrate the sacrifice, people have made, people have gone to jet jet skiing and and motorboats. I think that that's I think that's the spirit of the holiday that hot dog’s bread. That was the whole thing, yeah. And hamburgers. Get your wieners now. Anyway, Jaybird say goodnight. Thanks guys. Thank you.
Jay:
Goodnight