MUSKY 360 PODCAST EPISODE 243: Super Mega Sized Musky Talk

Podcast Transcript

Steven: 

Alright folks, welcome to the Musky 360 podcast, Jaybird. Are you fired up? We're almost 13 days out from the Musky Shop Bash. 

Jay: 

Closing in on it quickly close. Can't wait. 

Steven: 

Thing is. We're freaking. OK. Yeah, we are. Yeah, we're getting ready. We're getting there. 

Steven: 

What? What? We're getting there. You got? I'm looking at the website right now, folks. Food, fun, muskie gear and dozens of vendors. 

Jay: 

Free goods. Discounts. 

Steven: 

What do you know? If you if you're in the area, make it up. I know there's some podcasters that are coming up. Get your Northwoods Musky Hawg Sauce. 

Jay: 

We. 

Steven: 

So much to cover this week. Yeah, there's so many guys out in the water. So many people with questions. We're going to get to last week turned into not what I planned. Right. Right. Right. Turn. It's segued. Segued into ranting in Herbeckisms, and it was fun. God bless you. And I enjoyed that. It was interesting, heard back from some people this week about. 

Steven: 

That was good. That was a good one. 

Steven: 

That you know, these pressured areas, they're seeing it, you know, do with it with non will. So anyway the comings and the goings at the Musky Shop, you got the Spanky bait. Big Angry that is. But what my wife had the big angry one time, Jay.. 

Jay: 

Stay clear of that

Steven: 

Yeah, yeah. Sleep in your yard and see who gets the big angry, you know? Ohh. 

Jay: 

That. 

Speaker 1 

Mm-hmm. 

Jay: 

Sleeping in the Lowe. 

Steven: 

Sleeping, sleeping, sleeping in the low. There he is. I'm I just, you know, you do something dumb. Guess what? Jay's big, angry. Anyway. 

Jay: 

Yeah, well, this is a bait. This is a bait. Actually, it's a bucktail. 

Steven: 

I'm reading it says chill and it says it's a. 

Jay: 

Bone from sneaky. 

Steven: 

Simple, simply incredible. What's going on? Like what's going tell me? Tell me. Tell me now. Fast. We got so many questions this week. Jay. What's going on? 

Jay: 

Going on that is that is a large frame bucktail with the with double 10 blades, but they're combo blades ones in Indiana ones a mag 10 and then they also came out with a junior version. If you can call it that. Of the whiplash spinner bait, which is gigantic. Yeah. So this one is the juniors big too. But if you want the biggest frame spinner baits on the market, Spanky baits whiplash and whiplash Junior. Yeah, it's a it's a Hog. 

Steven: 

That's, that is, I'll tell you. People we're voting. You seven out spinning rate, that's, I don't know if that's their intent, does it say it in the description about trolling? But when I Yep, this is an amazing casting bait and perfect for trolling. Yes, you can cast it and work deep edges if you watch the Muskie shop TV the. Little video here. What about spinnerbaits that came out? Thank you for all you know. Yeah. And something like this. Fish fishing, deep ledges and edges. You can rip it. You can do anything you want with the bait that size. But I immediately think really great for your spinner bait trying because the heavier your spinner baits, the less line you need out. 

Jay: 

The big video? No. 

Steven: 

Which is going to equal better hookups? You know what? I'm. Speaking of spinner baits sold out on the meat grinder, excuse me? Sold out on Tailgaters, Don will have them. I think they'll get there tomorrow day after there's some people signed up for that so. Pork tailgaters. More more meat grinders are a common something that did land. You got your, you got your Fat B’s, you got your little b’s. You're back in fat and little available now in both sides and some others. Yeah, some others do we have the. 

Jay: 

Yep, you got a bunch more of those in. 

Steven: 

Fancy. 

Steven: 

Cannonballs, or do they? What's good? What's cooking there? What's what's yeah. 

Jay: 

Cannibal juniors. Yeah, no. We got some more, doctor. Well, we. 

Steven: 

Have some cool 5th you're looking fit the two. The two most popular sizes, the little B, the fat B. You got your. You got your ducky colors. 

Jay: 

You know, we have some, but we've got more. Coming in? Yep, we got them. 

Steven: 

There's cute little duck colors. There's there's. Toxic looking frog colors. There's things that aren't real colors which are all good. Any color. I think they're all in. I'm looking here. I'm saying dumb stuff because I'm sort of going to the color. It looks like silver just to, I mean, pretty much at restock on everything there because we are definitely getting into fat, fat B, little B, you know, I like the little b’s as a follow up. And if you're on, like, not big fish. Water. That's great question that a lot of people have asked, especially fish with me and everything. Could you use a whopper plopper? You could. But I love the little b’s Bigger profile, better hooks, and they hold up, you know? So if you're dialed in on Pike or small muskies on small, small, small top water, little b’s worth looking at for the from the durability standpoint. 

Jay: 

Yeah, it's truly, you know, a surface bait that's

Made for Muskies, yeah. 

Steven: 

And I don't we sell, we sell Whopper Whoppers. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking it, but from a durability standpoint. It's like OK this. Is way better than I've I've I've caught big Muskies on this small size Whopper poppers and stuff like. OK, well, it's now going in the trash, you know? Take the hooks off and save. I don't know how often they show up. Worth noting here for your your trollers, Jay, this request goes out to all the trollers. You got the Legend perch cranks are back in if you know it's one of Jay with these baits. If you know you know. 

Steven: 

Yeah, yeah. 

Jay: 

It's exactly well put. 

Steven: 

If you know you know if you don't, don't ask, don’t what.

Jay: 

There's a Yep, there's a group of people that absolutely love those things, I mean. 

Steven: 

Don't worry about it. Don't even ask. But if you know Jay. You know. 

Jay: 

Super deep diving. Super durable, super tough. Even the finish and they work. I mean herbeck Herbeck told me about trolling that thing he's like, I put 10 miles on this thing and he's like, there's not a scratch on the finish. And I caught fish on it too. He's he was an advocate. For those way back when. 

Steven: 

Yeah, there's there's have been a staple in the Herbeck’s trollin’ Arsenal. And Speaking of her backs, the other her back, Danny talked to him the other day. 

Steven: 

Hmm. 

Speaker 

Hmm. 

Steven: 

Mm-hmm. 

Steven: 

Got some of his savage gear 3D burbot. That's his. He's kind of the mastermind behind that thing. Does your back in interesting top water, Evergreen combat rat, Jay. That's what I'm dressing for for Halloween. I'm forget being a ninja turtle. I'm going to be a combat rat. Which color? Big bite chart. 

Speaker 5 

Well, of course I'm not. Never. 

Jay: 

Man, I'm. I'm glad you didn't say olive gold flash, because that's what Tom is dressed as this Halloween. 

Steven: 

Yes. And if we all four of us dress up as the combat rats, it's like a bad like, imagine just to show like you're sitting around in. 

Steven: 

Mm-hmm. 

Steven: 

The 80s Jack. 

Jay: 

Taking the look around your spare tail too. 

Speaker 

Right. 

Steven: 

Now listen, listen. The 80s. Why are these kids into them? Ninja Turtles. We need something. We need something. Knock it off. Rip it off quickly. I have an idea, Sir. Combat rats. There you go. That's how you get crappy kids TV shows. 

Jay: 

Right. They're mean to getting fights, and they catch fish. 

Steven:

Right. They also live in the sewer. 

Steven: 

So combat rats dirty, they get down and dirty. Can you sing the combat rats theme song, Jay? 

Jay: 

OK, they get down and. Can you? 

Steven: 

Teenage middle-aged combat rats. 

Jay: 

I like that. 

Steven: 

Maybe that should be the intro Next week, the insured to combat Rat TV show. Sorry, combat rat. 

Steven: 

Do you know they are? 

Jay: 

Offered not just her ability, but also a unique squeaking sound and mimics natural prey movements in the water. 

Steven: 

Does that say that? 

Jay: 

It does get. You have to get that bad boy on the. Water this week. 

Steven: 

And keeps yourself a combat rat. Folks pretty cool. Get yourself a rat. Do we got the of the stars and stripes in? 

Jay: 

Well, we got a few coming in Monday or Tuesday.

Steven: 

Thinking about rats. Jay, I opened up eBay. I was on a. Believe it or not, last night, the wife and I took a quick siesta down to the coast, flew down to down to the Gulf, did a little hanging out, flew back just to avoid the craziness of 4th of July and all. 

Steven: 

Stuff. Basically, our dogs go nuts, so we just paid the dog sitters that had to put up with that crap for two days and we didn't, you know, fair enough. So anyway, down there and I was bored. We're sitting at a place that sold Pepsi, right. I'm pretty much in the zone. 

Steven: 

OK, I'm in zone. I'm relaxed and. I like to peruse the eBay looking at. Stuff. Alright. Let's look what musky baits are on here today. Right. I'm always looking at there's weird or esoteric things, right? Never. Hardly. 

Jay:

Yeah. 

Steven: 

Look, people scalping the stars and stripes already, Jay? 

Jay: 

No. 

Steven:

Yes. 

Jay: 

Trying to get top dollar out of it. 

Steven: 

Freaking double. We'll. We'll get more. Don't pay the scalpers. Get your. What black Market Booker black Market, Booker watch, the combat rats fight black market, Booker? Jay, I'm proud of you for being the leader of the combat rats. What's your special skill? 

Jay: 

You're making fun of it. You wait until I put that thing to test. Catch a hog on it. 

Steven: 

Listen, I'm not saying the Baits bad. I'm just saying I want an entire intro song based on the combat rats. 

Speaker 5 

Oh. 

Steven: 

This is not a six inch. No, that's like 6 this that is. This is like, I'll tell you the greatest thing ever. 

Jay: 

Something like that. 

Steven: 

Yeah. 

Steven: 

I knew that I was like the next level of Boomer. You know, you start getting a little bit older here when Mike Patton from Faith No More redid the Ninja Turtles theme song. I don't know if you've heard it. It's. Epic. Kind of. Yeah, that's. But anyway, we'll come. We'll come up with combat rats. Maybe we can do it next week. Believe it or not, next week, folks, it it happens fast around here. We'll be broadcasting live from Jay's torture dungeon. 

Jay: 

Oh man, I think you're right. That's all so hard to believe, OK. 

Steven: 

So hard to believe. So we're there. See you guys get your plans lined up for the bash. Watch out for combat rats. Check under your bed. Check your back seat before you start your car. Here we go. Jay, Are you ready? Sure. Gentlemen, start your combat rats. Josh and I'll try to get everybody's. Sorry, we'll get to all the questions here as quickly as possible. We're gonna blare through them as best of our ability. If we didn't cover your question, resend it. I don't. Want to look back that far, Josh? 

Steven: 

We want a segment called her. We want a segment called Herbeck Tells how he really feels or Herbeck’s rant of the week. Thanks for answering the. Picture answer the week that is great. 

Steven: 

Hold on. Bear with me. Jay, it's coming. Hold on. Don't go anywhere. 

Herbeck: 

Ohh, so it's funny. Yeah, OK. 

Jay: 

Steven: 

Don't go anywhere, OK? And you know what I'm doing? 

Jay: 

Sit down here and put. Me on hold. I'm going. To put you on hold. 

Steven: 

Yeah. Hey, listen to me. I'm sitting here answering questions on the podcast, right? 

Herbeck: 

Yeah. 

Steven: 

And the guy says we want a segment called herbeck's rant of the week. What are you mad about right now? Steve Herbeck in in in under 5 minutes. What's what's got you fired up? 

Herbeck: 

Well, am I alive? Ohh Jesus. Ohh. 

Speaker 1 

Well, he said. 

Steven: 

He said this segment, he said we want a segment called tell us how herbeck really feels or Steve Herbeck's rant of the week. So it's not your chance. What? What, what? What's going on? Give him hell you got. 

Herbeck: 

Well, I actually, I'm actually, I actually just pulled into Andy Myers Lodge for eight weeks. 

Steven: 

Uh. 

Herbeck: 

I had a couple, had got a couple of Roman Cokes and me. See you soon. Hi to everybody. So I don't know if I'm really in the mood to rant too late tonight, but I'll tell you what, I'll have some ready to go the next time. 

Steven: 

Uh-huh. 

Steven: 

Alright guys, I'll give it. You seen Steve, you're such a good sport. I'm sure by the time he's gotta wake up there, he's gonna be ready to rock on something. We'll get you sooner, right? 

Herbeck: 

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I made it across the border, and they damn near had coffee and cookies and milk for me. I can't rant the ball, but that's the nicest I've been treated in a long time. 

Steven: 

Well, I of anybody that doesn't deserve to be treated nice. It's you alright buddy? We have a good evening. We'll get you soon, OK? 

Herbeck: 

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Alright, alright. 

Steven: 

Jay. Yeah. Ohh sorry. Hold on. I I got him there. I'm gonna have to cut and edit that. A Smid cause I got him. And he was like, I'm in such a great mood. So he's like he had a couple running coats. So no rant. Guys, I apologize, but I like the cinnamon. We will get a rant out of him here in the in the future. That was probably the calmest. Jay, I'm. I didn't even punch you in. I didn't even hear him pick up. So that was the calmest I've heard Steve Herbeck. So we'll see. He'll get fired up. Yeah, he was kind of in the Zen state, so we'll get. 

Jay: 

No kidding, OK? 

Steven: 

Him next week. But anyway. That's great. Herbeck's rant of the week, just man screaming. And the fight game. 

Steven: 

Get it, guys. Just have faith. We'll get it anyway. Guys says he's he. I've started to figure out catching how to catch a lot of fish on my local water. That is super pressured. I can catch a lot of 32 to 40 inch fish. But only 2 / 40 so far. If all these fish are caught roughly in the same kind of places on the lake, first break outside weed hitch, what should it do is besides night fishing and keep casting find bigger fish? Sorry if it makes doesn't make sense. That makes total sense that that you end up in a slot size Class A lot of times on highly pressure water. First question I would ask Josh is, are other people catching fish that exceed, you know, if you only got 2 / 40? Are you seeing other results or hearing about other catches, or is the lake so pressured that we're not getting a lot of muskies that are making it past 45 or 44 because I mean? 

Steven: 

Yeah. 

Steven: 

It's just a cruel fact of things. The more a fish is caught, the more susceptible it is to mortality based upon adverse adverse hooking or handling, right? 

Steven: 

Steven: 

Not. I'm not here to preach. Whatever. Don't care that it's just a truism, right? If we never fish for them, we would never kill them. But if we fish for them, there is a there is a moderate risk and we should try to. Minimize that, blah blah blah. 

Do your best, but you can have so much pressure that a fishery is really not turning out consistently anything bigger than XY and Z because. They're just not getting the opportunity to grow that. To the anything bigger or they're they're so susceptible to pressure or whatever. So that's something considered. You always have like a big fish in the system one or two, but look at it from the perspective of are, is there any consistency to this. So I say that because don't beat your head off the wall in a lake that won't produce 50 inch fish hoping to catch 50. Right. You don't go to to, you know, Wildcat in Boulder Junction to catch 50 inch muskie. Just don't you know nothing wrong with it. I love fishing there. It's fun. But if you expect to catch that you know the the Lochness monster you're going to be disappointed. So consider that. Is the is. Is there a high probability that there are big fish in the system depending on body of water size and things that nature right? So don't beat yourself up. You're not seeing it if those fish are present. Night fishing is definitely something that that can can play, right? Something that I have seen work on pressure water. That reinvigorates. Big fish fishing, if you will. Right, we're catching big fish, but we're not catching them now because people are beating them up and they're seeing a lot outside of night, fishing is jigging. Go with what? What is what are what's the least amount of stuff happening and you have to talk about night fishing. I got to look here. Let's see when I've got this slated. I did a little write up because I'll be traveling here. I've got a head on an article here and I've got there's there's a clicking and ticking. In Canada article that's up on the app I just did. Before I was jet sitting early this week, Jay's got a new day of the week coming out here. Surely we'll have a doctor Bob here here in a second, but I'm going to look here. We've got this set. So on the 12th here in just a couple days, there's an article coming out about adjustments and game planning for night fishing now. Obviously night fishing can be helpful. What? What? What are we doing in that snare? We're getting fish that are are seeing less baits. We're taking some of the visual element out of it. And Muskies will condition. Like, OK, if eating during the day is bad, let's eat at no. 

Jay:

Right. 

Steven: 

Well, if eating shallow and eating these spinning things that Blair through the water at 400 miles is bad, let's do something else. There's not enough people that are willing to troll nightfish or jig to condition Muskies just not going to happen. Right. So when I'm seeing pressure or been on pressure waters, trolling, night fishing and jigging, always stand out. 

Jay: 

I'm sorry. 

Steven: 

Right. You're not going to get. I dare you. I'm going to tell you right now. Whatever body of water you're on, go out and jig with the Bondi bait. And don't. I'm not saying do it poorly. Like watch one of bondies videos. He's the master of it. We've done some stuff on Muskie shop TV about it. But lift the bait about a foot. Let it fall under tension. If you jig a body water that has muskies in it and you get on the 1st break or the outside edge, you are going to contact fish. You put the time in doing it, you will catch a fish. I think it is a higher percentage yield hour for hour versus casting versus trolling. I think I've said that before, but if you put a gun to my hands and you have to catch fish outside of the spawn, I can get a bite jigging anywhere. Any like anytime any day. 

Steven: 

Right. 

Steven: 

Now, the downside of that is you're jigging, right? That's right. It's one of those things like you know well, you know. You're again nothing wrong with it. Not my preferred methodology, I think from a standpoint of effectiveness hours in verse muskies in the net. That it's superbly high yield. Why is that? Well, if that fish was previously caught recently caught or is pressured, and nobody's doing that to him. Right. So Muskies, if we we adhere to. If we adhere to the the the tenants of structure fishing. There's more muskies that are spending more time in deep water or the structural elements adjacent to littoral zone feeding zones throughout the course of the day. So that would be my commentary there. Add in jigging if you control where you're at, troll right, do something different than everybody else because there's big fish. If there's so much pressure that you're getting. Stunting and you're casting those big fish might go ohh. I don't even go shallow or there's boat pressure. I don't even go up there. Uh. So that would be my first look, Mike friends of mine that are not muskie fishing have been telling me that they read all kinds of info that fishing for Muskies in the river rivers of Wisconsin is a waste of time. Lakes are perfectly fine. I've I've had some luck at night in the rivers except for this year so far. You know, just curious what your guys thoughts are. 

Speaker 5 

You know Jay? 

Steven: 

You live by one, you fish it all the time. Plenty of Muskies that get. What's the skinny here on rivers? No, he's he's saying that he's well. He said he had some like, night fishing rivers. But he's saying friends of his are saying it's not productive for Muskies to be fishing any of the rivers. 

Steven: 

Steven: 

From Wisconsin. I think that's. 

Jay: 

There's there's plenty of great. Yeah, it's hogwash. There's plenty of great rivers system. Most of the Wisconsin River system South of Minocqua is exceptional muskie fishing. 

Steven: 

Down in plover. 

Jay: 

North of well, yeah, I guess north of pull over South of Minocqua, that whole stretch in there, lots of opportunity, lots of lots of 50 inch fish get caught every year. 

Steven: 

Guess what it's lacking. 

Jay: 

The big voting pressure. 

Steven: 

Yeah. 

Steven: 

So that's why I like moving water. I always have, always will. You can take the boy off the Creek, but you can't. Take the Creek out of the boy, Jay. Cracker anyway, Rivers, Wisconsin are awesome. Some of your small streams, one of my favorite stories I've heard in a long time. Tom Rudis of the Muskie shop. You know Tom is. Just a superb dad and takes his son on adventures. And remember, last year they went on that kayak trip from Hell where they were like way further than they thought they were going to be and all that about this time of year. And he was seeing big. Muskies just cruising right through. In real small water. So yeah, there are opportunities. Most people. Let me put it this way, let's be blunt and at myself. The older I get, the more I fall on this trip. I didn't even know I'm here. I was like, oh, we're gonna do a video of John boat fishing. And I was. Like, oh God, I don't want to drag my. 

Speaker 5 

John boat out, you know. 

Steven: 

Yeah. 

Steven: 

You get old, you get lazy. It's pain in the ****. You gotta drag it over hill. You gotta drag it up the hill. A post. I can just kind of, you know, launch out on my fricking. Super rig and it's nothing. The harder it is to access. 

Speaker 5 

The less pressure it will have. 

Steven: 

The more. 

Jay: 

Vlad. Outrageous. 

Steven: 

Yeah, the more bugs, the less people, Brian, if you gotta walk in, nobody's there. There's some water. I fish here when I'm not being a complete lazy idiot. Where if I get in there and you're like these things are they're going to eat something. 

Speaker 1 

Yeah. 

Steven: 

Alright, so look at accessibility. If I listen Jay, if I was a spry and 25 get you a fricking 16 foot jumbo and the crappiest 2 stroke outboard off Amazon, that's a weed eater with a prop essentially and get up in the skinny stuff. You know you're you haven't thrown your back out yet. You can do it. There's nothing better. Jay. You've done it. I've done it. There's nothing more exciting than fishing out of a small boat and hurting yourself just by moving too quickly. 

Steven: 

Mm-hmm. 

Steven: 

Didn't you do? 

Speaker 5 

It here recently you're fishing like so. 

Steven: 

What did you do the other day? 

Jay: 

I don't know. I set the hook on that monster wall. I think that was it. An hour later. I'm like, man, my back hurts. Couple days later, it was just a pull. The muscle or something was cold out. You know, your body's not warm. 

Speaker 5 

It. Ohh dudes, I've had. 

Steven: 

Not man, you didn't follow. 

Jay: 

Getting normal. 

Steven: 

The 43 step Muskie prep pre workout program that you. 

Jay: 

Ohh Freddy's Calisthenic program I've. 

Steven: 

Totally musky calisthenic the the the bank. 

Jay: 

Forgot about that. Warm up. I didn't warm up enough, Steve. I did not. 

Steven: 

The last time I took the the Jay gave me the JSE Pond Master 2000, which is the the John, but I'll take out some time. I don't even think I told you the last time I was dragging up the hill I slipped and. 

Speaker 5 

Just rolled down the. 

Jay: 

Hill, which is? Yeah, that rain storm or whatever. 

Steven: 

Not Sean. Yeah, I I. Basically, ate at the bottom like if I had a pistol in my pocket, I'd just end it. Now you know, you're like, just like a fool anyway. Get on some skinny water, get on some stuff where no one else dares tread and you're gonna have some luck and his question. We got kind of far. Afield here goes. Back to the pressure question, water, but the harder it is, the less people will see there. And when it comes to rivers, most people are just not going to do it. Zach. Your structure talks have finally set in. Thank you so much. It feels weird to spend 3 hours of mapping with the fish Finder, but the last hour has been once every time. I've got my large spike, small mouth bass, large mouth in the last two days I've been destroying on brake lines and it's to the deeper section of the water and. Like there are only a couple more deep spots on the lake to map when looking for more shallow structure. Do you have any recommendations? Thank you. Again, it does make you feel like you're on the next level when people are cruising past you in their boats with weird looks and you're parked in the open water with no visual targets, catching traffic glass fish. 

Speaker 5 

Thank you. He got it. Oh my God. Finally. Yeah, I. 

Steven: 

There. Go. 

Jay: 

There you go. Yes, that is what it's all about. 

Steven: 

It's like after all the years of doing the podcast, he wins. We're we're released from the curse. We're good. 

Speaker 5 

Thank you everybody. 

Jay: 

It's awesome. 

Steven: 

Like confettis flying. Thank you, Zach. It's now. You have to do the podcast every week. What's your problem now? We've been released. 

Jay: 

I got that look yesterday from some boaters on the river, you know, middle of the. 

Steven: 

River. What's he doing? 

Speaker 1 

Your. 

Jay: 

Man, just go buy it half throttle and throw some lake at me 20 feet away, you know? Yeah. 

Steven: 

Damn. Well, now here's what's going on. When we were unpack them in destroying on brake lines, deep, deep, shallow structure. Do you have any recommendations when looking for more shallow structure OK. I'm always going to look for shallow structure adjacent to these deeper breaks, so if you're finding deep spots which is relative and you know that now deep spots on the lake look for the shallow structures. Adjacent to them, now the key component is. Tight breaks and structural elements that have. Define definitive connectivity to these zones, so a shallow, let's say, a shallow littoral weed bed, right 12 feet and under of weeds. Adjacent to a deep holding area, right? Now I'm going to look at these two things so everybody and their brother can identify weed beds, right? You can identify deep edges in their brake line. The mastery of this situation is their connectivity, and where that matters and what matters. OK, so deep hole shall the weeds. Your real real job now is to find the connecting structure. At times it can be infuriating because the map is so just blood or it's a really gradual drop to deep water. Sometimes it's like a neon sign flash and go boom, boom, boom. Here's a truncation, or here's some kind of. 

Speaker 5 

Really hard. 

Steven: 

I wanna say hard edge, but there's a really hard transition that leads to. So now your job is connecting shallow structure and deep structure. Once you find places that connect and inner commingle these things. Now, now you're you're rocking and rolling. Sounds like you're already freaking killing it. But that would be the next little factor of. Shallow structure, deep structure how they connect. You're hitting these fish. You're destroying trophy class fish on deeper brake lines. You're killing it. Really. Start looking for that. Move out. So. The fluctuation of deep to shallow. They got to be following something. What are they following? Once you understand that now, that allows you to pinpoint the best spots in a shallow zone. Right. It's like a arrow at X marks the spot. Well, this is where the highway exits. Everybody's got to go through this one spot, which is generally your spot on spot, on spot, on spot on spot structural. Right, so find the connecting point. There is a thread. There is some kind of yarn between the deep good and the shallow good. How do they connect at times? It's so gradual that it's like whatever. Sometimes it's a cover thing. Sometimes it's rocks. Whatever. Find the connectivity that draws AA, AB. Line between A&B shallow and deep. Once you do that, you got them. You got them. Well, good job on that. That would be my thing. You know that that is how I'm going to differentiate my shallow structures from. That's how I'm going to grade my shallow structures like, OK, this isn't connected to deep water. So I think it holds less trophy fish potential. Sometimes right sometimes are wrong, but in general I'm right. The biggest of the big fish are adjacent to the deepest water. The easiest way to visualize this, and not everybody water has us. A point that comes off of the shoreline and terminates at the main base and depth. Right. So a point coming off the shoreline that terminates at your main base and depth that is like easy once you understand that concept, it's a ramp. It's like the ramp of fish, the ramp, the fish go up the ramp, the fish go down the ramp, right. Right up the ramp down the ramp. This might be part of that combat rat song. Jay, we just changed where combat rats go up the ramp, but the fish go up the structural ramp and down the structural ramp. It's the fish escalator. That's what the point is up and down, up and down. 

Steven: 

MHM. 

Jay: 

Could be, yeah. 

Steven: 

If you can. Need a conceptualization? That's the best thing to look at. Not every like has that, but you go ohh. What's kind of like the truncating point. How are they sort of forced, not forced, but what? What makes the most logical sense is of pathway or transitional. Element from shallow duty. That would be the trick. Dan. Hey, guys, I do a Muskie league during the week after work and fish by myself and also on the weekend since nobody wants to Chuck Baits with me all day. We got. I'm crying. Then nobody loves me. Anyway. I was wondering on how you'd fish by yourself. It was for five hours or a full day trip. Since you don't have multiple baits getting cast on the same structure at the same time. Well, I'll tell you first and foremost if I have. Of to fish by myself. I've got limited time. Let's call your five hour trip. It's 1/2 day. Trip dial in on something. OK, I am going to first and foremost do the same thing that I always do. 3 point bait check. Right. We've talked about it before in a certain musky book it's talked about. We'll just start calling it. 

Speaker 

Steven: 

Mm-hmm. 

Steven: 

A certain muskie book. I don't want to bring it up, but I expand it. But in this certain Muskie book. There's a there's a system of we're checking mid show and deep so we have a starting point that is educated. Right. We're not just guessing. We're letting the lake tell us what to do, so check there. Once we've ascertained bait fish or mid shell and deep musky should therefore be mid shell or deep. We can target zones that should be productive based on structural study. All right, let's say you just got some spots. You know what's going on? Let's let's skip that. That's the first thing I want to do when I'm by my. Well, the reason being it well not skipping, but the reason being that so important we have less rods to dial in on right less presentation. It feels weird to me when I'm not in the boat with somebody. 

Jay: 

Best presentations, yeah. 

Steven: 

Like that. 

Speaker 5 

But it's bizarre. 

Steven: 

I I cannot recall, maybe I said on the podcast, but off the top of my head, I can't really recall. The last time was like muskie fishing, but. 

Speaker 

So. 

Steven: 

Right. I'm like, going. OK, let's put this dude on a meat grinder and put this dude on whatever. And, you know, we got the buffet going where I'm by myself, OK? What I can tell you is it is far more important to understand. Seasonality structure, there's fireworks. Do you hear those kindness still going off? So we have fireworks, fireworks going off, dogs barking. But it's important that we understand. Seasonality, forage, movement and staging, right? In the structural elements, so much more than just hitting spots because. You can't really cover the match water right? So as a solar angler half day trip, five hours on that kind of day understand where the beta are now make a super intelligent call on your presentations based upon running depth and size of full reach, right? So it's not about where the muskies is, where the bait. What's the four inch size? What should I be looking for now? What I'm going to do is I'm going to narrow my scope of search based upon an intelligent decision based upon. 4 inch staging bait fish staging so I'm narrowing my scope to let's say mid right. Let's say there's nothing shallow, there's nothing deep. Everything's on most legs have. Let's call it the 12 foot bright line. Right 11:50. 

Steven: 

Sure. 

Steven: 

I think it's a puddle if it's not ten feet deep, unless it's a river. But let's say a lake, it's 1010 to 12 foot brake line. There seems to be a congregation of bait fish. That are suspended at 8 feet above that, so we've assumed they're eight feet off the bottom. So the bottom is 12 to 10 and the bait fish are eight. It would be a relatively safe assumption that a predating muskie in that area is going to be staged below that bait at the time you got there. Right. So let's say you go out five hour trip sunsets up there right now when Jay. 

Jay: 

9:15 or something like that. 

Steven: 

9. 15 OK, so you got five hours. Let me. To just put my head in this headspace. So if we got five hours and it's nine is sunset and you're coming in because the old lady's mad. She's big, angry. Jay, if you're not home. You're launched. You launched at 4:00. Right. I did the big math and according to the the the the supercomputer that's it's 4:00, it's got five hours, OK. Well, it would make sense. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm I'm. Guessing. That pretty much based on forage movement on a typical day, we're not talking weather or water conditions yet. That baitfish would move out structurally. To deeper water to a mid depth point, so that jives if I'm seeing the bait there. I'm looking at the the time of day in conjunction with conditions and forage. It's going to tell me what to throw to be most effective. So I need bats that are getting down a minimum of eight feet. Very very simple equation of deep running jerk baits. Right Bulldogs. Medusas krakens. You're you're not going to throw your top order to be successful, we need baits that are getting down in that zone that run appropriately there. So I'm going. Where's the bait? Where's it staged at? What baits run effectively in that zone? How big is the bait that I'm throwing at? And then I'm dialed in on not only my location, but my presentation. So the only thing we have to dial in on after this speed. You have. You're you're you're relegated to only a handful of banks. You theoretically through a. 

Speaker 

Yeah. 

Steven: 

And I'm I'm getting ahead of myself, but OK. The knee jerk reaction for fish staged at bait Fisher 8 Muskies feed forward and up. We need to be hitting eight minimally, are going to be cracking Bulldogs medusas tubes. That's kind of your best game there. You have some crankbait options. 

Speaker 

Yeah. 

Steven: 

But I would be. Thinking about those sinking super deep crankbait options as a cold front methodology or super slow thing? So we're dialing it on speed so bait's there. The time of day. The seasonality jives with this. I'm going to start with these jerk bait presentations and then my follow-up would be quickly going progressive cast with count down or deep running crankbaits as a follow up to that, because often we're relegated to big baits run deep. Your bigger Bulldogs and produce all this stuff, right? So the heavier abate is, the faster you have to work it to get action. Right. Because they just fall. So I would go Jerkbait countdown crankbaits are super deep running crankbaits as a casting thing. If fish are staged 7:50 or 11:50 that 8 foot bait range, I'm going to quickly. Look at trolling as effective methodology. So. The way I'm breaking this down is just instantly it takes me, Jay. We've done it before. We're going to do it here next week. 10 minutes, man. How many times have we gone on the boat? I'm not itching to cast. 

Jay: 

Hope so. 

Steven: 

What would you say? I mean, honest to goodness, we go out on on neighbor Steves. Hacienda Lake, right? 

Steven: 

No. 

Steven: 

And the first move I'll make, we get the boat launch, we get away from the mosquitoes and the schmutz you schmutz along. You got that little hump over there. You got some edge. You got some open water. I'm just looking at my grass gun. There's there's 1-2 and three. 

Steven: 

Checking it out, checking out. 

Steven: 

Instead of stop. Thank goodness people are starting to get it. You're going to have a better time if you spend the time doing the homework. There's nothing worse, and this is just like. Some of us can wing it, right, Jay? I've showed up places and winged it, and nobody knew the difference. Right. I gotta speak. I gotta we gotta film a video. We got to do this. I got to do that, you know. Wing it. Alright. Gotta do a podcast. We don't have a script for the podcast. We just wing it. But you can't win it with musky. Not very often not successful. You have to go 10 minutes dedicated to getting a real grasp on the situation as it is not as you want it. Let me say it again, get a grip on the situation as it is not as you want it. Once you have that, once you have your head wrapped around that and you're confident in that, you can formulate a a positive game plan. 

Jay: 

Absolutely. OK. 

Steven: 

So we go out. It's 4:00 we got. 5. Hours I've identified the the majority of betas in that zone. Cool. I'm going to target that zone then if I'm not successful, I'm going to readdress. My presentation and my speed. Right. While always keep an eye for bait, fish or other fish to restage as the day goes on because you're not going to go out very many days and the best musky days we all love. It is drizzly, it is low hanging clouds. It's not storming, but it's just on the cusp. They're all shallow, they're shallow all day. They're rarer. Than hens teeth. Right now in Wisconsin, Jay said it rains every day. Well, what's it look like when it's not raining Jay back and forth? High Sun, no win. Big win, you know. It's it's in varying degrees at all times. We're always chasing the cabbage dragon. Jay. Yeah, that's absolutely right. Right. So go ahead. Sorry. 

Jay: 

Well, I have a. 

Steven: 

Big question, no? 

Jay: 

You're out by yourself. You don't have other people in the boat for the first time ever, right? OK. 

Speaker 5 

Oh yeah, that's what we need to cover you. 

Jay: 

You don't have those. Your presentations. No. No. Are you fishing? Are you covering ground faster? Than you would with other. People in the boats in. 

Steven: 

App and discount slower. 

Steven: 

This case. 

Jay: 

Slower. You're confident in the areas that you've detected is going to be as productive as more than anything else, and we're going to fish slower, OK? 

Steven: 

So that, yeah. So yeah. Like I said, believe it through the magic for technology before we start answering question I took, I took a tank OJ. So I forgot about the the element of the other people a little bit in some capacity. So. What I'm reliant on when I'm angling by myself. Is and I think attention is a more affirmative grip on reality of the situation and addressing it, like I said, through boat positioning, the identifying for each and and appropriate presentation. Now, with that being said, if you got two guys in the boat, you can you could do a deep crank Bay and. A jerk bait. But. What I'm going to do is I'm going to select, let me put circle back in some regard. I'm going to select the most appropriate lure. That I can cover the most water with effectively because I said speed is the only caveat we've yet to determine. Right. So you may need to go through a location that you go structurally. It checks the box bait, fish, it checks the box, season out, it checks the box. You may need to go through it three times. Now, if I'm a solo anger in Wisconsin, you might be from who knows, Iowa. It doesn't matter. Let's say you're in A1, rod per one man state, right? Yeah. And I've got. In my head, just the the scenario of the outside the weeds. I'm outside brake something that we could plow through, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. If you got two or three guys with this, you're going to need to strategically cast. You know, if we if you believe me and doctor Bob and the science of how Muskie sees and feels well, you're cast probably not. Shouldn't land more than five feet apart. So we need to really truncate our target zone. 

Jay: 

Right on. 

Steven: 

Right now that that's easier said than done, there are sometimes there is an edge that is a mile long. I'm going to utilize every tool I have. I'm going to, let's say in this this scenario where the bats at 8 and everything looks like it's right for that cracking first and foremost, right? Then I would follow that up. Turn right around and I'll say this in about two minutes. How many times have you and I fished a spot where we've gone in, fished the inside, turned around and fished the outside right while I'm making casts that were directly in our boat path before us. So fish the edge, flip around, fish the outside edge. Right. While making occasional cast that are straight in front of the boat, so you hit the parallel. So if we've gridded out this spot inside, outside and dead center and we've not had any action and you're still confident in your, your your patterning come back through it with one rod trolling pass. Boom, done. You didn't catch a fish move on. You see what I'm saying? So you're going to have to break it down. I would say that this is just from guiding. 

Steven: 

Yeah. 

Steven: 

I'd say the most. Problematic component of most muskies and most musky anglers game is not their ability to cast. But their inability to group their casts. That makes sense. And I don't think it's because they're incapable of it. I think it is because that every muskie is ahead of the boat. Right. The next fish has to be in front of the boat. 

Speaker 5 

Opposed. 

Jay: 

You're saying you're saying you know some? Some dudes are. They're running and gone. And let's say there's two or three guys in the boat and the guys are moving at a pretty, you know, good click. He's going, you know, maybe, you know, like a mile. 

Steven: 

Yeah. 

Jay: 

An hour, which is pretty fast. Slowly fishing this weed line and you know the guys in the back of them are like, well, his cast just landed there. He didn't get a hit. Grass is always greener. I want to cast a head, you know, so everyone's thinking faster, faster, faster, faster. And that's just like the normal. 

Speaker 5 

Head. Head. Yeah. 

Steven: 

It's not even a. 

Jay: 

Yeah. 

Steven: 

I don't even think from a speed standpoint it's it's well, it's a point well taken, don't get me wrong, but I'm always if you fished. On my bed, I'll. Look. At you go. Stop turning in. The front of the boat. Right. Square up to the gentle and throw directly in. Front of yourself. You OK backing things up, everybody? Let's take a breath here. Yeah, this is two things at once. That they're not exclusive from one another. Boat control. Boat control, boat control. If your boat control is too fast, it influences your casting spacing right based on the way they subtend their eyeballs are in the water. If we need visual stimuli coupled with, excuse me, we need lateral line stimuli coupled with the visual stimuli. For a negative and neutral fish, we need to be landing 5 feet apart minimum. 

Steven: 

Right. 

Steven: 

I agree with that being said and you're going, what is my? There's no way. It's a four foot fish. Again. Really quickly. Vibration. Takes time to reach a fish and for them to respond. It's fast in water. But. The further away, the less they feel it, it's less enticing. Unless they're fired up and hunting actively. Hunting, right? You know, you feel a puff of air. OK, that's not wind. If you get it close to them, there's more vibration. It's more intense. They're more likely to engage. Right there is dissemination. There is a muting factor of the vibration of your bait. Through the medium of water. That should dictate your casting coverage, so saturation casting ensures that maximum vibration is sent to the musky that he can couple the vibration with some kind of visual profile that is going to make them engage. That has to happen. In in, in, whether they feel it. And then they see it, whether they simply feel or whatever, they have to have a certain degree of stimuli to react. It's just a fact. I mean it's it's not. I can't think of a sexy way to put it. They have to have a certain degree of stimuli before they will respond positively. If this was not true, you would throw a bucktail on one into the lake and every muskie would run to you when he felt it. 

Jay: 

That's a good point. 

Steven: 

There's double 10s getting boys, no. I have had and I because of fishing and moving water I got out of the front of my boat. We've talked about before it gives me. Better boat control and current and all this stuff. 

Speaker 7 

Dude. 

Steven: 

It doesn't matter. It's who landed closest to the fish every time. Rarely is it like this front of the boat things. Sometimes you'll get super fired up fish that are willing to go crazy, but whatever. Proximity, proximity, proximity, proximity, proximity. This is regardless, yeah, with solo angle or not. 

Steven: 

What view? 

Speaker 5 

The. 

Steven: 

Like I said. The casting proximity equation is quickly broken by go Figure 8. Ohh your bucktail on one end of the lake. Why they not all show up? Because the vibration disseminated through the water and was weakened. It was not enough stimuli to to spur the result that you want. Right. Every night that freaking I got a neighbor. That I I listen if if it was legal to own land mines, I would plant them for him because he's got a car that goes bumpety bump, right? This this crap, right? Gotta get up at 6:00 in the morning for a gotcha. I can hear him coming a mile away. The it's more vibration. My house is shaking more the closer he is. And the stimuli gets closer to me and I get madder Jay. 

Steven: 

Just gonna say that, right? Yeah. 

Steven: 

It it it is, it is not the way that people like to look at fishing, but it is true. This is why, when we talk about fishing, weeds, saturation, cash is important weeds because weeds are not good at translating vibration. Weeds are actually a deadening factor. Right. All we are doing when we are fishing is we are creating disruption in the water. Associated with the visual target. That's it. 

Jay: 

Chip from chip from a back seat, angler who fishes the back of the boat a lot when we go out. I always take it back, right? Just pay attention where the the front two guys cast are are are landing and try not to land in. 

Steven: 

Yeah, yeah. 

Jay: 

The same spot. 

Steven: 

Nobody. Yeah. You're never. And it's like you're never. There's never dead water. That's that's a whole other thing, but. 

Steven: 

No. 

Steven: 

Trying to get back on track here. To my dude about solo angling. 

Speaker 7 

Is that? 

Steven: 

You're going to have to narrow your. Scope of search. And know how to search that area effectively and efficiently as possible. Right. How do I cover this? How do I what what? The reason we came with this hypothetical. Excuse me. Goodness gracious is talking, right? And this fell apart. How do we? Effectively. Target the zone that all of the arrows are pointing that we need to target. Right. How do we target that zone as efficiently and effectively as? Possible that is through saturation. So if you have two guys in the boat, you you there's an exponent that that that increases your output up to whatever, right. So you're going to have to be smarter about your coverage, more diligent in boat control allowing for said coverage. To be at maximum efficiency. Right. So take advantage of all tools casting, trolling, jigging to cover that area and then move on. Boom right? I like trolling, especially if solo. There's a video, I'll put it on like I don't think we use it for musky shop. There's like a solo troll fish and I said I couldn't remember last time I did it was last year I had a client that got sick and I was on the water. Whatever. I'm already here, dude, and I I whacked it like an upper. 40s by myself, of course. Got cheese in my beard. That's why I won't use. I'm eating. I'm eating a sandwich and I'm just like, freaking cheese and meat go everywhere, you know? But. 

Jay: 

What? Awesome. 

Steven: 

I'll put a clip on the app or something. At some point but. You know in that scenario, that's the last time I could remember doing it was like, OK, what? I know what the pattern was at that time. They're down 6 feet. What I want to do, what's the most maximum? Efficient thing I can. Do troll blah blah blah blah. Think from an efficiency standpoint. Catching fish is fun. The process of catching them usually socks if you're doing it the right way, you got to have you got to be like, you know, German. Efficiency. Right. What are we doing? How are we doing it? Are we are the most effective? Well, the only way we know it's effective is by doing it. And the only way we know what's effective it is through process of elimination. So tight cast coverage and then move on. You can be a stone cold. Killer as a solo Musk. But that is going to be systemic of the fact that you're a stone cold structure fisherman and you understand seasonality and proper presentations. That's what's really going to help you there. You know, as far as a full day apply, this whole stuff that is a rabbit hole and I apologize, I hope, I hope I gave you some ideas, Ian. When do you start targeting open water muskies? Ian. Never stop. Can't stop. Won't stop. There's your answer. They're always are muskies in open water. Always that is going to happen now, are they truly pelagic and and and just out in the the the ether there? Well, we talked about paying off each other day because of pressure and scoping pressure, some of them, some are transitory, some are just moving around. You will have open water. Suspending Muskies year round case in point before they go in and spawn, guess what they do, Jay? They they. Stage outside of spawning ears and just kind of hang. So the entire time it's possible from from beginning to end of the year. The most effective seems to be later in the in in the in the summer, in the mid-july August, a lot of suspend those, you know gun in the fall you'll see a propensity moving shallow again and then the colder water months they'll they'll stage out. Now what I'm going to do back to the same answer. There's always just a handful of answers here. 

Steven: 

The. 

Steven: 

It's a logical thing. When am I going to focus on open water? Muskies Jay when there's bait staging in open water? You know. 

Jay: 

Don't boil. It's down to the three-point check. System when you start the day. 

Steven: 

Right. And if something as silly as, you know, Minnesota, what? What's 1? Heck of a hot bite. Minnesota, the Cisco spawn. You know, where are they at? They're freaking all over open water, moving into reef systems and doing their business. So. You know, will you on occasion. Finally, Musk, you this completely out in the middle of? No, we're. Just hanging out, absolutely. 

Speaker 5 

Is. 

Jay: 

Muskies never sleep, Steve, they never sleep. 

Steven: 

Right. Well, they turn off a little bit of their brain and go in a solvent stage outside of that, and they never truly sleep. They actually go and fish have this weird solvent thing that they can do, but nonetheless there there's there's always open water opportunities. I'm going to allow the bait fish and the conditions to dictate. When that is so, it's not a seasonal thing. It is a conditional thing. Knowing what would you say would be the best lure to use on June 5th. 

Speaker 5 

Where to wear it a little late? 

Steven: 

Wow. We have been behind. Don't know, bud. What else is this? 

Steven: 

Kind of vague, but OK. Yeah, yeah. 

Steven: 

And and that's fine. We're all at this. We're all everyone's different experience levels. If I'm searching for what bait to use on a certain day, let's look at what time of year it is, so June's going to be in the in the the summer. And so we're into July, let's say you're fishing now. No one's fishing now it's July. What do I use? What do I do? Let's look at our conditions, right. And we know we can find Muskies from shallow mid the deep. Are are bait decisions gonna be made made on? That that same thing where the bait fish where the fish at? But we need to look at weather and like to keep it just is as simplistic as this. The brighter it is, the deeper I go, the darker it is, the shallower I go. OK, look at your graphs. If you got them, look at your bait fish and try to make a decision on what makes the most sense. You know, the weather sometimes tell you what the tells you what the scenario is. And sometimes the bait fish. 

Steven: 

Mm-hmm. 

Steven: 

If you're looking for what? Wait, do I throw it? Right. You know, it can get really complex. It could be as simple as just throw something that's that's going to be deep running cause it's really bright. You know, dig in, digging on the subject of muskie fishing. 

Jay: 

Yeah, maybe maybe doesn't have good electronics too. So you know, you just had a good point. You know, the judging on the day, you know, the time of day, if it's early morning and it's not extremely bright out yet, try some shallow running stuff like Bucktails. 

Steven: 

Like dude said I. Should double back. There was like the other parties. What would you do on a full day or whatever? We're talking with the five. Well, you start shallow and you move out. You fish mid and deep all day long and you move back in shallow. 

Speaker 5 

That. That's that's that's. 

Steven: 

Typical game plan outside of those perfect days where they're staying up shallow and conditions. Are. Great. That's a very bare bones thank OK. After sending an e-mail on types of blades to use in stained water about a week ago, I ran across your ultimate muskie fishing with spinnerbaits and it explains a lot about blades and their actions. Thank you for that. I'm also interested Mike. I need. 

Speaker 5 

A new chair, Jay, I apologize, people this chair. Is. 

Steven: 

The same. 

Steven: 

Just. 

Steven: 

Squeaker. Just getting on my nerves. I apologize if you hear it in the post. He says he thanks for that show. I'm also interested in your opinion what blades used in different water clarity and why. Since Muskies are supposedly visual hunters. OK, so he's saying their visual hunters more than vibrational out. It's backwards. They're more vibrational than visual, but we'll go on from there. I'm I'm asking, you know, what would you use in certain tanning? The waters different light penetrations. I know you're going to tell me you'd use a cracking instead. Lol, no. 

Speaker 5 

I would not. 

Steven: 

But hey, nothing, no harm and try it. So different blades at different depths. OK, well, we talked about in the the ultimate muskie fishing the spinner bait video that came out. What? No less than a week ago, Jay. Yeah, I'm talking about some different tactics, which are obviously we can straight retrieve, but some ripping, twitching, jigging all kinds of fun stuff with with spin arounds. Now when we get to the modification section I'm discussing different weighting options that could be for different caching scenarios, different structural. 

Steven: 

Yeah. 

Steven: 

Like approaching different structural elements appropriately. I think they cover that, right? So. Blade choice is not about water. Composition. It's about light penetration, so watch the video and if you check out what I'm saying talking about different degrees of lift. Right. Willard. 

Jay: 

Crucial. 

Steven: 

Crucial. It's not water color, it's light penetration. We always want to be below the level of light penetration. Therefore, if it's seven feet down Willow, easy call. It's cloudy and kind of, you know, we got good Cal cover and all this stuff, right, Colorado. And it's in a straight retrieve basis now we see different attraction to different vibrations, sure. But the reason that Steve's meat grinder has a #9 mag Willow blade is for maximum thump at maximum depth. Right. Which is is it's cyclical, everything is cyclical. We were just talking about proximity. The more vibration the bait puts off, the greater the proximity will effect it will have. OK. The reason double 10s work well. And they're so effective is because they put off so much vibration. It's an acute signal that's reached out further. It's not that Muskies. This is my opinion flat out. Because it's all the same thing. The reason double tins were on fire so much when they first came out. Is because people could be ****** casters and still pool fishing. Right. Greater vibration means it goes out further. Right, big thump. It goes out. To the sides, down all around that bait, right? The vibration travels further. It's a bigger thump that calls them in. All right, so the more stimuli we have. The the greater the, the greater your proximity is, the louder it sound is the further it's hurt, right? True simple talk about my neighbor. The more he turns up his boom, boom, boom. He's got the he's probably listen to Black Eyed Peas or whatever he's got that boom Boom Pow. 

Speaker 7 

How? 

Steven: 

The louder it is, the further you hear. Well, what's loud in fishing, not talking rattles. They they don't hear the way we want them to hear. So the bigger the vibration. The more likely the greater the likelihood of engagement. Now. Where people struggle is muskies don't always want big stuff. Small baits and expect effectiveness with less vibration needs to come from tighter casting. Does that make any sense, Jay? Yeah, right. Totally. When you speak, when I, when I. When you whisper, Jay. If you whisper to somebody across the room, do they hear you right? You have to get right near to whisper. 

Speaker 5 

Right, that's a fly. 

Steven: 

Proximity, right? If you whisper, that's a musky fly. If you scream at the top of your lungs, it's double tins and Bulldogs. Everything else is a degree in between. Are you screaming? Are you whispering? Right. That's it. 

Jay: 

You ever notice musky whispers catch more? 

Steven: 

Fish. No, shut up. I'm being serious. That's trusky whispers. Ohh. Musky whiner. 

Jay: 

You don't. You don't call, you don't call a good stick. A musky, loud mouth. You call him a musky whisperer, and you're on to something, man. 

Steven: 

No, that's that's that's true. They got you got more finesse. I mean, that's the thing. It's it, it's. OK, alright, I'm down a rabbit hole, but it's all it's like. I guess I'm on a tangent that explains all. Maybe I'm I'm truncating all the answers to to the tangent, but it doesn't matter. Let's cover it again. From the tiniest tiniest presentation is a whisper to the biggest bait we have as a screen. Right. You will not take. Think about this. Take a rattle trap and throw it 30 feet apart. You know every cast. How good is you gotta cover. Bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. In the in the the the bigger debate, the wider you can cast. Well, why is everybody so successful? In July and August? Oh well. They get to use big boats. It's hand grenade season, everybody. 

Steven: 

Hmm. 

Steven: 

Wow, everybody gets she's a hand grenade. Congratulations. Through your hand grenades, everybody went muskie fishing. They did good. The boys did good, Jay. Seasons over. It's September. The hand grenades don't work anymore. They're not biting. 

Speaker 5 

Yeah. 

Jay: 

Yeah. Let's see what you're saying. 

Steven: 

Yeah, that's why I'm talking about the Bucks Hills and the top waters are out anyway, you know. 

Steven: 

No. 

Steven: 

It just is what it is so. Back to the question. Vibration Blade decision is made on. Primarily made on light penetration, right? I'm not gonna go one for one if if. If the day before the conditions were great and they were definitely dialing in on single Colorado blade and you're like that was it and you knew the difference, right? Not like you caught 1 fish. I'm going. They only wanted that. There's certain times, and I think a lot of times people get soaked out and like their own single weight. How do you know that? If you say they are, you're going to convince yourself that they're solely on that. They're on single eight. How many fish did you catch? One. How many followers did you see or have on imaging? Well, the one I caught. How many hours of output, how many? You can't you see what I'm saying? You can't judge. A pattern is not a singularity and so like. 

Jay: 

Yes, yes, yes and and and with muskie fishing. Steve, it's all about you know the the that horrible mythical, you know, fish of 10,000 cash crap, you know, right. So people have that in their mind that you know you get one or you get a response a day. 

Steven: 

I can I. 

Jay: 

You're on to something. You're on the pattern. That is the pattern, and hopefully it doesn't. You don't con yourself into having that carry over the next day, which is. Completely different day. 

Steven: 

Well, yeah, it's it most days. It's not the same. Like if things the wind doesn't change and the clouds don't change, it's perfect. You might be in the ball game, right? But it's not that they're dialed in on X. OK, take it down to. 

Jay: 

No. 

Steven: 

Swim baits, whatever that I caught one on a Poseidon. OK, cool. Great. So for the rest of week, you're gonna throw a white Poseidon and burn it regardless of conditions. That's what people do. That's what they do. It is a day-to-day, hour to hour, sometimes minute to minute assessment of what's going on. That's if you're on a body of water that's stable. I fish reservoirs and rivers that fluctuate depth and current rate and flow. The more compounding factors you have. The more complicated the equation, which I'll tell you this goes back to like most of the question we've been getting cause I think the general consensus is how I find Muskies catch Muskies that's always it, right. You know, obviously that's the whole point of everything we're doing. But a lot of questions we get this done here. You have to. Be paying attention to everything around you, the, the the act of casting abate. And the act of the retrieval is important. But it is completely a useless endeavor if you're nowhere near a muskie. To the matter. I I the guys I get to fish with the guy. If you guys listen to podcasts and I always just go straight, I can call Steve Herbeck out of nowhere and just bother him, you know, call Booker. Just bother him. I know these guys. It's not like business. It's friends, right? And and and a lot of the greats have been able to fish with. It's not a matter. That that they've got the latest and greatest, we've the the Baits have changed. All right. The cool the what was cool previously was isn't cool now or what's gonna be cool next year, isn't, you know. It is a matter of strategic patterning. You know, I say to people on my boat, J. The first hard part of Muskie fishing is knowing where they're at. The second hard part is, yeah, the second hard part is getting them to eat. 

Jay: 

Location. 

Steven: 

I think location is far harder than getting him to eat. Right. Because if we know where they're at, then all we have to do is close proximity and we have to make adjustments in size, right, are we? Are we whispering or are we screaming anyway? God, I'm my soapbox up or just. 

Jay: 

Yeah. So dial it, you know, dial in on your location if you can make all attempts and then you know, be prepared to use a bait that you don't. 

Speaker 5 

Throw. Yes, great point. Great point. Yeah, dude. 

Jay: 

Because that, that's that's super, you know, with a lot of people. It's just like oh. God, I hate running jerk baits. You know for some reason. People. Don't like to have some kind of, you know that erratic rhythmic thing going? They want to throw something constant and buzzing. They could feel it, you know. 

Steven: 

They want to threaten. Let me say this, I'm going to say something and this is absolutely I'm giant caveat. Massive, massive, massive caveat. This is this an opinion? And it is. It is completely. Merit is unmerited. My least favorite bait to throw as a Beaver bait. Right. That is because it flings water all over. Me. And since the day I got. One I was like. Uh. Right, flinging water all over the boat and I'm a freaking most days. I'm a neat freak. You know that kind of. Thing. I put a client on one. They're getting me wet. I got one. I'm getting wet. There are times when that is what is going to work because the running depth and the profile right? Because I can take all the weights out of this thing and it'll run ridiculously shallow as a jerk bait. I have them in the boat. I throw them. I'm successful with them because conditions demand it. I don't enjoy throwing them personally. If if you're a gasp grabbing your pearls. He said he like. A bait Beaver bait is freaking awesome. I've got giant fish on it. It is highly effective and it will always be. In my boat. Right. I don't not throw that bait because I don't want stuff. And Jay, I'm kind of OCD at times where it's like I don't want water drops on my screens. You know, and that's just like I'm telling this or saying this because like what I want and what the fish want are not the same thing. So who cares? What's the point, right. Right. If I don't enjoy throwing the bait, screw me the fish want it. That's. What we got? To do because we got shallow fish on a jerk bait scenario on something we need to really have really good depth control on and it needs to undulate, right? 

Steven: 

Yeah. 

Steven: 

Well. They're not on shallow regular regular dogs or the regular dog. Whatever mag dogs. But man, sometimes that Beaver bait they just come unglued cause got more action at slower speeds. At none waited for me, sure. There it is. Totally great bait as far as its effectiveness and everything it does. It's perfect as far as me going. You know, I'm sick of getting water on myself. It is what it is, right? You. You see what I'm saying? I'm not talking about the bait. I'm pointing out a scenario where it's like you just said. Jay, it's not about what you want to do or you don't. 

Steven: 

So. 

Steven: 

Like this style of Bay. It's about shut up and do what is most effective. 

Jay: 

Everybody's got loose, they don't look strong, absolutely. 

Steven: 

I am, you know, you might hate a Titan. I hate Titans. They suck. Well, if they went diving, rise. And they want it super slow or. You better figure out something. Right. Because if not, if you're unwilling to adjust your game plan and. Tailor it to. The fish you're going to have a real bad time, Mike. Great show is your maze music. But no, he wants music for deer camp. Mike, you can always listen back and just just play the intros. There, there, there is there. Most of the slime Life Records compilations are sold. Right now, so is there any time of year that moon phase have more effect on muskie fishing or is it more important to try to fish during those times in the summer? Do you favor? Just, just just listen to the. Intros and play them. Fishing sunrise or sunset if you have to pick only one, OK. This is. Loaded. Let's take it down to its core. I'm just I'm just in that mood, Jay, if you can't tell. Right, we need to fish both sunrise and sunset in the majors and minors to make a determination of our patterning. There's no like this is going to work. Fool's errand. Right. That's like walking to the casino. If you. If you're not like, say, Mark, you're dialed in and you've been fishing all week long and you're fishing consistently, you'll see results. By fishing as much as you can and dialing in on it. But going I'm gonna fish sunrise this Saturday and smoke them walking to the casino. Drop drop 10 grand on on. You know. 21 black see how it goes. I don't know. People ask me, tell all the time. When are we leaving for our trip? You know, I we're booked September 19th. When are we leaving? I have no clue. And my canned response, your fish on my ****. You would text for me, it says. You ask when we're leaving, I said. We're dealing with weather, water, wild animals. I'll make a determination, most likely two days ahead of time, based on up-to-date current assessment of what's going on. Now I don't know. I don't know. I know what I'm doing tomorrow. I don't know. I'm doing that the day after. 

Speaker 

No. 

Steven: 

Right. Again, confirmation bias. They're on the major. Are they still tomorrow? Nothing lasts forever, baby, are they? Or was it today? I think that's what's frustrating about muskie fishing and that's what I love about it. I want to say this. I I don't. You never hear. Me talk about the fight. Yeah, I don't think. The fight they fought like hell how. 

Speaker 5 

No. 

Steven: 

Don't. I don't talk about I'm playing chess with these things that got the brain, the size of a pea, right? And their their, their regard what, whatever, however, however, they end up getting here, creationism or or whatever however you want to look at it, there is dialed in for the environments can they can get we're playing chess and I just want to fool them once they bite and they're hooked. I don't care after. 

Steven: 

Mm-hmm. 

Steven: 

It's a deeper understanding what the apex predator is doing. They're always going to do what's best for them. They're always going to do what's best for them, so they're dialing in on. Things we're trying to dial in on them with minimal information. That's the game. You're a strategist, right? OK. This is something I've thought about a bunch working on another book, but it's kind of like the theory of it and in some sense of some of the stuff I've been right. Is is, you know. You are strategizing against an opponent. With minimalistic Intel conceptualizing what they will be doing. OK, I know. What route you take to work every day, Dre? Right. I know where you go to work. I know where you work. I know how you get there, right? So between your house and where you work at. I know that route. Right, I know. And it's just like it sounds kind of murdery. I learned this from the Smitty's. But so let's say I'm going to murder Jay. 

Speaker 5 

Sorry, Jeff. 

Steven: 

It's a bad example, but I love it. Now I know where you live and I know where you work. Well, through study and listening, I know where Jay grocery shops. Ah, so I know where he gets his food. And I know what he eats for breakfast. Getting creepier, right? 

Jay: 

God, that's weird. You mentioned that because I went to camps super value in town. Yeah, the day before the 4th of July. Jake Smith was there waiting. 

Steven: 

For me, Dan and he smelled blood in the water, but yeah, jokingly. It's like, you know, patterns. So Jay will come on my way to work. I know where he's at. I'm I'm 13 hours away by conceptualize. I know what the route he's traveling generally. 

Speaker 5 

Is that structure? 

Steven: 

That structure I go the same way to the water every single day. Right. Habitually. OK, that's first and foremost. Right now. You know, and I'm putting this as is as lame in terms of possible incomes pattern. Jay. When you leave for work. Tomorrow morning, right? What will you do differently tomorrow morning than you will do in December? 

Jay: 

Not much do you? I won't warm up. My car as much. There you go. 

Steven: 

You changed your pattern slightly based on what? 

Jay: 

Climate weather. 

Steven: 

Yeah. 

Steven: 

So you see what I'm going for? 

Steven: 

Yeah, I know what you're going for, right? 

Steven: 

Jay augments his pattern based upon the season. You you change your pattern of what to wear clothing wise other than free muskie shirts, Jay has saved more money on clothing in his career than any man I've ever seen. Jay, when's the? Last time he bought a shirt from a store. 

Jay: 

It's been probably 25 years. 

Steven: 

He's got some of the greatest T-shirts ever, but it's like stuff like companies that are now companies that have been in business for 20 years. Jay's got a T-shirt. It's like brand new from, but anyway. 

Jay: 

Let's get around to wearing it someday. 

Steven: 

I save it. Not I'm just joking about murdering Jay, but. I say this because you'll see it in your own life. You don't change. Too terribly much, and what you're doing in the day-to-day. Unless something extreme happens. Well, Jay, why would you change your route to work? Well, there's an accident or something happens, right? Yeah, we're boat traffic. You just spent. Monday through Friday afternoon being a muskie, I go from the deep, I go to the shallot, I eat my food. I do my thing and then Friday night. Something changes and everything. You're crazy and you change what you're doing. 

Jay: 

Yeah, yeah, it's summer. It's super busy. Traffic's a nightmare. I'm gonna. 

Speaker 5 

Take a different route. There you go. Perfect. 

Steven: 

Perfect. That is how you conceptualize this. Game. 

Jay: 

True. 

Steven: 

So. 

Jay: 

That I'm not going. I'm not going up in 2 feet of water to eat blue gills this morning. 

Steven: 

I know this. 

Steven: 

No, all the googins are in. All the idiots are in. 

Jay: 

Go away. 

Steven: 

Yeah, yeah, that is it. Now is a muskie like thinking about it in, in, in, you know, in a sentient manner. No, he's just going. What's the easiest for? What's most comfortable? But that that would be something to think about because this guy's question is what time of day is better? Too many factors say Bam, bam, bam, bam. Now do I see seasonal preference to like July and August, New Moon? Full moon? Yeah, they're both good. Majors are typically good, but there's so many factors in and around that that we've got to look. At as a whole. Right. You have to look at it as what day of the week is it? What is the weather? That's why this is such a complicated equation. That's why it's so attractive. Jacob, I'm a big fan of fishing. Deep Clear Cisco base lakes. Many of these lakes, that of fish are over 15 feet of visibility during the Midsummer months. Working 15 to 25 foot shelves. The dump in the main lake basins are where the fish seem to live. Tubes and deeper running suits have been my only source of bites on these lakes and other bits that get deep. I've tried. And they get follows, but never strikes. So I feel rather limited in my options. Deep, faster rack with no extra flash or rattle seems to be the key. Any ideas to diversify for daytime fishing so tubes deep running jerk baits 15 to 25 feet? 

Jay: 

And shine away from rattling, loud clinking things. 

Steven: 

Heavyweight. When I think that the. 

Jay: 

It sounds like he's he's like, yeah, you know, deep running spinner baits aren't the ticket. On this, on this on. 

Speaker 5 

Well, if it's yeah. 

Jay: 

This clear, clear system like that. 

Steven: 

Something that immediately it's like euro stuff, like I was texting with Tim's brother. He's got a Magnus prototype, caught a monster Pike on it, by the way. 

Steven: 

MHM. 

Steven: 

And we're talking about running depth and he's like, OK, I'm easily hitting two meters. This is the extra weight we should, you know, I would recommend you should probably do for for like, grim wash and then other ones and all the stuff we're talking about. Like, OK. And you know, I'm going. What's the quietest base that our rubber swimbaits jerkbaits. Right. So tubes are doing good for you. Something I would train your straight retrieve. Is something like a swimming dog or a Poseidon that's just weighted down to nobody's nobody's business. Right. Just wade it down. Do it evenly, so put you know put put 3/4 on on the front hanger 3/4 on the back hanger with some bell sinkers and see what that does for. You. Right. That's going to be quiet and you can work it really erratic. So we need erratic and we need deep. We need erratic deep. No flash let. Me double check this. Deep, fast and erratic with no flash or rattle, OK. So I obviously use tubes work. The jerk baits work. They're quiet baits. Get your swim baits? Wait the crap out of them, right? Pop them up like a tube straight retrieve them. Bam bam bam, really. You know, crank that. 

Jay: 

Original Bonnie Baits too. 

Steven: 

Pie. I'll tell you. Well the the Bondy baits. I've caught a bunch of Muskies yoyoing Bondy. 

Steven: 

Baits. Oh yeah. 

Steven: 

Throw them out and yoyo on them. Deep down structure. You could take the blade off. It's just a jerk. Bait. You'll probably get the same kind of response of the tube, but on that it's going to run. You know, very deep. Other stuff, I mean the the. A Big Fork Reef digger is a heck of a deep. Running bait. And they make some really big models that will cast down exceptionally deep. Right. If you're if, if, if you think a crank would do it because the crank's going to really open up the doors to some some versatility and what you can do. 

Jay: 

Legend, perch bait, straight perch. 

Steven: 

Bait again. You. Yeah, we're talking about the deep running, Baits legend perch. The the Big four. Reef digger. You could get away with if it's 15 to 20 now it depends. Because like you said. The heavier the Bay, the more erratic, the faster you can work in while retaining depth. Countdown crankbait. I think probably the easiest one to work with is the countdown Booker depth rater right. It's a foot a second, so you'd have to bomb that thing out there and you'd be waiting. 

Steven: 

Hmm. 

Steven: 

But you can get some erratic jerkbait twitch bait elements out of that right when I'm dealing, and I deal with Clearwater a lot. What becomes problematic is, is we need fast, we need deep. We need erratic. That's a great. That's a great conundrum because you've eliminated a ton of baits. Well, top water is out of the question. Bucktails are generally out of the question. You take flash on top of it. We've really truncated that. Now what you've done is is some really good patterning. Now you're expanding upon. What can be done? You know, you look at something like the H2H2O tackle barbarian, right? That has rattles in it. Do they make a non rattle with that? You. Not that I'm aware of, but you know you look at a debate like that has versatile waiting. That's what I'm going to be looking at, what baits are easily like, what baits are built to have their weight augmented? Easily, right? So that you can mod any bait, but a lot of times you're you're you're fooling with stuff so much. Right, that you will screw up the action, but like something like the the crack and tight and all my stuff, it's meant this the the way the baits constructed it will handle the additional weighting H2O's the same way some of these baits that you can just you screw in weights and and get down there in the zone that you need to be. Something else I would recommend. Is and this is the ninja trick. Prepare yourself. Literally, Carolina rigging crankbaits. Was a Carolina rig. That is a big old sinker in front of a leader, right? They do it with bath soft plastic. They'll put the weight in front of the thing and basically you hop the weight and the bait comes along behind it. 

Steven: 

Mm-hmm. 

Steven: 

I've done this a bunch by using the the the 36 inch liters. Right. So I'll put a you know, one ounce 2 ounce egg sinker. Above the leader. And now I have a 36 inch leader. With the egg sinker, so I am basically deep twitching crankbaits and as the egg sinker falls, guess what? The crankbait dives down. And you rip it up. It rips up you can twitch stuff. You can run any bait with 36 inches in front. Of the weight. You can actually take a crank bait like a you could run a crane, bait and bounce it off the bottom, and when it floats back up it'll stand vertically. Rip up, float, rip up float. Right. So you're taking these shallow running crankbaits? Caroline and rigging them and ripping them and bouncing them. They're not influenced by the way on the bait itself. So it's not messing with the action. Now every time you stop momentum, the things free falling down. Right. But you can actually bang stuff off the bottom. And just rip baits up and let that sinker fall back down. That baits look up boom boom. Contact float and bait. Bottom contact floating bait. Right, that can be done with any buoyant crankbait. You can do that with suit, you can do with the tighten. You can do it with a lot of stuff where you know, if you imagine you put, say, unweighted tighten, that's a really fast rust. In front of a one ounce sinker, throw it out. It's going to sink like a stone, right? Every time you rip it up, that thing's going to bang to the bottom. And then when you pause it, it's going to suspend, bang, suspend, bang, suspend. So you're working the sinker and the Baits coming behind the the sink. 

Steven: 

Right, right. 

Steven: 

It's a Carolina rig. And I've been doing that for eons. That works wonders. Do you want? Wow, we got to downsize something real small real deep. Don't put the weight on the bait. Put it way in front of the bait. All right, now you've got suspension. Now you've got control of depth now you've. Got control speed. Pop it just a little bit and advance it just a. Little bit and it falls apart. Rip pause, rip pause. My goodness, there's so many, Zach. Any tips for night fishing? I'd love the thrill catching musky in the dark. Getting ready for the adrenaline pumping. Seeing these beasts in the net. I I'll tell you this. I think I talked to it earlier or or mentioned earlier, Jay, that there is an article coming out next week. About some night fishing basics to get you dialed in. It's not that different than than muskie fishing in the daylight, except for, I believe, a little bit of preparation in a few adjustments there, Jay, we we we've proudly rambled on. 

Jay: 

Ramble on. 

Steven: 

A bunch here. I gotta get packing. I gotta get cracking. Gotta get packing here. Headed to Wisp. By God. Consent here shortly. Can you believe? Next week it'll be live from Jays house. 

Jay: 

It might be live from garage. 

Steven: 

You never know. 

Jay: 

You don't. You don't know that would be. 

Steven: 

It could get wild anyway. 

Jay: 

The acoustics are. 

Steven: 

Terrible in there. It's kind of boomy. Anyway, guys, be in Wisconsin next week. We'll give you guys the rundown of what's happening there. We're going to get dialed in. We we'll have if we didn't get to you this week, we'll get to you next week. We've, like I said, we've rambled on. I I was going to try to be fast with it. Jay, too many tangents. I apologize as are. 

Jay: 

Only so much time in the. 

Steven: 

Day, Steve. So much. Anyway, Jaybird, say goodnight. 

Jay: 

Thanks everybody. Good night. 

 

 

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