Musky 360 Podcast Episode 358: Musky Season Wrap-Up with Danny Herbeck and Joe Cooper
Transcript
Steven:
Alright folks, welcome to the Muskie 360 podcast Ejabberd. Not much, buddy. How is it going in the Northwoods? What's the weather looking like?
Jay:
Steve, what's happening today?
Jay:
Well, it's raining and it's 42° out.
Steven:
Well, that's not that cold yet.
Jay:
Is it? No, it's fairly normal actually.
Jay:0
Yeah.
Steven:
Well, what are you gonna do?
Jay:
It's sucker season. Yeah. You know, Steve Herbeck was in the shop a few days ago. And no, it it went well. It went well.
Steven:
I'm sorry you have to. Was he with you? You didn't have to have him, like removed by sheriff or anything or.
Jay:
No, no, actually, no. He was very well behaved. He laughed a lot. He told a lot of stories and this time and yeah, some really cool topics of musky.
Steven:
This time.
Jay:
Machine and the age of suckers. The age of suckers.
Steven:
What's your name? Who's your daddy?
Jay:
Yeah, right, stuff like that. So, yeah. Well, really neat seeing him. And he's like I'm. I'm leaving Canada just to to. Well, the right time or the wrong time, you know.
Steven:
Uh-huh. Yeah, well, we'll see.
Jay:
He went in that whole thing where, you know, the lodge is closing down and there's really no more bookings for him and he's like, hey, in the next few weeks, my son still up there fishing and he's going to do well, cause now's the time and it's later than expected, obviously.
Steven:
It's the time of the season.
Jay:
Joe.
Steven:
What are you going to do anyway? The comings and goings at the Muskie shop for the last time of the year, there's.
Speaker 8
A new hat.
Jay:
But we we got 2 new hats, Steve. Yes, yeah.
Steven:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's no, the excitement is gone. The thrill is gone. There's some new hats. But you can get your calendar. We talked about that last week. You can get your calendar and I think we're done until you know, pushing past Christmas on anything new, we'll, we'll we'll let the comings and the goings go.
Jay:0
MHM.
Jay:
Yep, the the new stuff will be coming, you know, closer to catalog time, which is January. That's the.
Steven:
Got that, got that. We've got that out of our. Season. Or outer system I should say so. You know what are you going to do? I like new things. Who doesn't?
Jay:
Yep, well, we got some good stuff in.
Steven:
The works. Yeah, there's there's some funzies. Funsies. Funsies. Funsies. Funsies. Funsies. Funsies. Anyway.
Speaker
MHM.
Steven:
I'm twerked up and worked.
Jay:
J Yeah, I have a big day for you tomorrow. I know well, gosh. Birthday, yeah.
Steven:
Ohh, what? No, no, we're not addressing that. OK. No, actually doing I got myself for my birthday. Would you get a new hot tub?
Jay:
Get out of town. I didn't know that. Outdoor indoor.
Steven:
Well, the hot tubs outdoor, so I I've broken that thing in, if you know what I mean. Nice. Yeah, buddy.
Jay:1
You know.
Steven:
You get. There you go. I'm in my 40s. I'm gonna buy a hot tub cause I can't.
Jay:
After a long day on the water, your.
Steven:
Cold causes cause I can baby.
Jay:
Get in the hot tub hot. Too hot?
Steven:
Whatever, man. You know? Yeah, it happens. You get a hot tub. You don't. Sorry. Anyway, Speaking of not hot, it's Canada. It's finally cooling down and we called the hosts of the Muskie 360 Canada podcast, so Danny Herbeck Joe Cooper they have been. Like running with the torch of what's going on up there. Mucho respect out to these guys because they're there. I'm not there. You're not there. I can tell you what's going on from, from from here.
Jay:
Big time.
Steven:
To. Wisconsin. But we got the big swingers. How can you go wrong? So here she blows. Yeah. I can't believe it. We got a foursome, Jay. The first time is your first is your first foursome, Jay.
Jay:
What? It. It would be yes.
Steven:
I would say it's probably your first anything. Well, thanks, Steve. Anyway, we've got Joe Cooper and we've got Danny Herbeck from the Muskie 360 candidate show. How are you guys doing this evening?
Speaker 2
I'm doing well, I'm doing well.
Steven:
Cooper, you live, buddy.
Speaker 4
Yep, Yep.
Steven:
Very cool.
Speaker 4
It's looking good, man. I'm doing alright.
Steven:
You know, we you got to do what you got to. Do so. Anyway, I thought be cool and and and here we've got. They've got some really good info. There, just talk. About everything like kind of a beginning to an end because. You know we're in the, we're in this weird spot where it's no vember. Where the seasonality doesn't quite stack up and I've kind of realized going back in retrospect that it hasn't stacked up since the beginning of Muskie season up north, would you guys say that like it's the timeline like? Would you got the two of you being Canadian guides? Do you feel like it's never been right on the pace that we think it should be?
Speaker 2
Yeah, like this year, it's just it was like the never ending spring that, you know, the ice went out and then it just stayed cold forever and ever and ever. And when it did finally warm up.
Speaker 3
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2
It was too late and it set everything so far behind.
Jay:0
Yeah.
Speaker 2
That not it. It could never catch up. And I mean now look at what we have for November. I mean it's it's this trend is just continuing on this year and it's it's made for you know, a little bit tougher fishing. It's either been really good or really bad like the days of just going out.
Jay:0
Yes.
Speaker 2
You know, getting water or getting 2A day, you know, every day that wasn't the case. It was either you're getting 3-4 fish a day for like a week and then all of a sudden the next week you're banging your head against the wall and. You want to burn everything you own. It was. The IT was a real roller coaster this year. It wasn't just a nice, steady grind.
Steven:
It was it the same for you on like the woods, coop.
Speaker 4
Yeah, yeah, I mean you. I'd say it to like really just in a the most general way, sum up the season. I'd say it was overall kind of slow with with some moments or or some windows of greatness that that were happening frequently enough to to keep us confident. But it was definitely at times.
Jay:0
Yeah.
Speaker 4
It looked it looked bleak some days.
Steven:
That you know.
Speaker 4
But this fall, things have kind of.
Steven:
Sorry. No, no, you're good. What? This fall? What?
Speaker 4
Ohh, this fall things kind of lined up a little bit for for me at least. You know I finally got on some some good numbers and some good sized fish. You know, one thing we dealt with all season was pretty high water and now we're down kind of to what our average would be and I've always felt like when the water is high. The musky fishing is tougher and it's. Funny that even. Though they're down deep this tinier I I kind of feel like the lower water. Won't help.
Speaker 2
Yeah, I would. I would definitely. I would definitely agree. I mean, I remember the low water years, the fishing being being better weather that you know it, it changes the spots.
Jay:0
Yeah.
Speaker 2
And what and how? They use them a little bit, but it's. I feel like it's. That narrows those little key zones that they like to sit in versus, you know. Having you know. A lot of those reefs where they where they'll set up in 5-6 feet of water, you know, being as big as a football field when the water is down 3-4 feet, they don't use that anymore. So now they're stuck on, you know, littler little littler projections and smaller spots on the spot, right.
Steven:
It's crazy. It's Danny. It's crazy you say that cause like in the South, we had massive flooding right from that hurricane that came through. And so they blow the reservoirs out. And literally yesterday my pattern was on truncated spots where the the smaller the water, the more we narrow the field, the tighter that they're going to sit. Which is is that the, it's it. I think what you're saying is spot on spot on spot matters. When the waters left.
Speaker 4
Exactly.
Steven:
Right where you can narrow your fear.
Speaker 2
Well, I just and I. Mean. Yeah. You take a lake? Yeah. You take a lake as big as Eagle or lake of the woods, and you lower it 3-4 feet. That's a lot of fish that could be in that zone that. Are being pushed. Into much more confined areas. It's just, you know, less water means less area for them to hide, right?
Jay:0
MHM.
Steven:
Right. Is that when when they can push up in 6 inches of water, you know, with their tails basically sitting out. It's. Yeah, you. You're taking out a lot of search area. You know, as far as that. Obviously Jay Jays rocking the North woods you guys are doing cannon. I've been between both and. It and I like what Coop said. It it's been like moments of greatness. The entire season for me has been feast or famine where I go, I feel like really confident and then I feel like a complete loser back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. I think the only consistency I've found has been inconsistency. Does that? Does that bode for both of you think across the board?
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean it. Yeah, kind of more for the inconsistencies were when you didn't have, you know, your your full moon periods or your or your new moon period. That stuff in between. There was a lot of times where it was just like, you know, kind of random ketchup fish where.
Steven:
Right. Right. We're not, yeah.
Speaker 2
They should be. And then all of a sudden you. Yeah. And then you catch a fish, you know, down 20 feet out off the edge of something here. And it was real kind of up and down.
Steven:
But what about for you, Coop? Was that? I mean, you kind of articulated, but was it moon for you on Lake of the woods? Or was it just kind of like luck of the draw?
Speaker 4
I mean the I felt like the moon maybe wasn't quite as crucial this this season for me, but I I mean like that's that's one thing too where, I mean, I absolutely understand how the moon works and everything, but I don't necessarily always plan my days around it either. You know, I'll kind of go with whatever works best for the clients.
Steven:
Absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 4
So there's days where there might be a prime moon window or something that we might not be out there for and and I could be missing out on something, but at the same time I, you know, you're going every. Day. And but you know like the the one thing.
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4
The one thing that. Was consistent for for me this year, I guess was the weeds. What was inconsistent was the where you were finding weeds because the water started out really low at ice out and then went up fast and that made for the weed growth to be pretty spotty.
Steven:
Well, Speaking of clients, one thing that's kind of funny because Danny, I, I spoke to him the other night. You guys have what? Until the 15th of December, correct? That you could fish.
Speaker 4
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Steven:
And and usually you go, dude, it's we're into November. Nobody wants to be here. You could actually fill your boats up for the next at least couple weeks if somebody wanted to do it to go because me and Dan and again her back. Danny's not pushing you. Cooper's not pushing you. I'm pushing him where I'm going. I'm talking to these guys, and Danny called me the other day because, dude, I just filled a bunch of deer tags. It should be too cold. I shouldn't want to be fishing right now. But we're just now hitting the good stuff. Like you know, that was the vibe you gave me. Danny. What do you think? As far as the weather trajectory? Like, if somebody wanted to get on Hoga source with your coop. Next week, the if you could swing, say you're retired and you take your week off from golf and. And went on a muskie trip. What's it kind of looking like?
Speaker 2
I mean, I looked at the long range and the next two weeks where we don't touch anything below like really freezing during the day till. At the end of the two week forecast. So I mean we're we're a long ways away. We're a long ways away from freeze up. I mean we had a couple of chilly mornings here where like some of the puddles were frozen, but then by 10:00 in the morning, you know the ice had already come off them. I mean, yeah, it's the long range looks promising.
Steven:
If yeah, if that yeah.
Speaker 2
Whether you know. Who knows how dependable that's going to be, but I mean every day right now I'm sitting here staring at my green grass, thinking I should be on the water right now, you know? It's killing me actually.
Steven:
What about? What about for you, Coop? I mean it. It's still viable for a good little bit.
Jay:0
Yeah.
Speaker 4
Yeah, absolutely. It's so the fishing has actually been like really, really good here. In the since. About the middle of October and just yesterday, at least in the Northwest angle portion of the lake, here we hit 4646° and.
Steven:
Which is nothing.
Speaker 4
Yeah. No, I mean, that's just when it's getting, it's like just getting started and the way things are looking like this is going to be a good week. You know the the water is pretty generally shallow in this portion of the lake. So it does cool down pretty quickly and we we were losing losing tanks pretty fast there for a bit, but it might. Kind of hanging around here, which it's kind of nice when it's dropping like a degree a day, but that's not really happening, I don't think. But I I don't currently have any more guys books. I've had some guys calling and asking, you know, the angle really shuts down. I think there's maybe like one or two resorts left open at the angle here, so it's kind of great. I'm, you know, I'm getting somebody to come up and stuff, but the last two weeks or so or or since both the middle of October, we've been getting a lot of big fish and this is really my favorite. One year and and I'm pretty dialed on on these late fall Muskies. So it's it's pretty fun, but I would like to be able.
Jay:0
Yeah.
Speaker 4
To get more guys.
Steven:
Yeah, it's one of those. Where I I I did and and and I'm not trying to drop this on anybody, but I read it minutes before Danny actually called me. Said, what are you doing? I was. I was working on this stupid intro. We always do, right? Try to get a chuckle and. My wife walks back here and says, did you see the fish that just came off milax? On the 29th. So somebody caught a 58 incher off my lax 2 days ago, right?
Jay:0
You know.
Steven:
Fishing the night? Bite it literally just came out just now.
Jay:0
Yeah.
Steven:
And and so if anybody's asking, it's Sunday here. I just found out about it. So here's a 50 inch, 58 inch fish who was caught on the LAX at midnight. It's freaking the end of October, beginning in November. He they said they caught on the 29th. In my head, I'm going. End of October, even in Tennessee, I've got plenty of pictures of me in Snow gear in Tennessee, fishing the mornings or fishing night time. We're having a weird year and I think this is the thing of like, have we known this?
Jay:0
Right.
Steven:
Had I known this, I would have been on the goon and on Eagle right now, right? Nobody knows what's gonna happen. But this is a rare opportunity where seasonality. Because as guides, let's see if they're bakeries. But my thought is this, like water temperature is super important. Great. You know, we all know that. Photo period the duration of light that's available to them I believe is a bigger indicator of how much they're going to feed. So less light, tighter bite windows. You get the cold temps that's usually happening the end of October. The first couple weeks of November where? This could go on for the next 2-3 weeks where all hell could break loose for once.
Jay:
Yeah. You know, Steve, Steve, herbeck. Danny, your dad came in at the Muskie shop on Friday. That's exactly what he was talking about. He's like he's he's. He's like, it's just getting great, you know, and I left, you know, and and I'm fishing up here. But no, no. He was telling stories for about 1/2 an hour. It was very entertaining.
Speaker 4
Well.
Speaker 3
Did he get kicked out? He got kicked out sitting.
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, typically we'll pushed off the lake. Unless you got a nut loose somewhere.
Speaker 3
Yes.
Speaker
By the time this.
Jay:0
I do.
Speaker 2
This goes they're actually like actively actively spawning, right, like where they're spending a false majority of their time up shallow. We're usually pushed off the lake by then. Yeah. And the way that this, you know, this, they're they still got the Cisco still have to do what? They're going to do. We might be able to, you know, actually be out there while they're actively responding. And the fish are up on those rocks chasing them around. It could be.
Steven:
Oh my God.
Speaker 2
You know, really, really, really good. And I'm sitting here right now. I'm actually in my truck because my kids running around, being a fool outside. I just looked over and I I got my water, I got my water running on my tank and I got 30 like. 16 then 19 inch suckers swimming around in my tank right now, just itching to get 8 so.
Steven:
Well, you better get me. You're gonna have to get out. And then that's one of those things that's a rarity. Dude, I can't imagine, like, some of the the, the, the spots on it and not spots. But like, reefs and tops of stuff that. Donkey Kong because you just got a 40 pounder a few days ago. I saw the picture. Right.
Jay:0
Well.
Steven:
The the the the crazy weird fish you could get in front of because it's so late. Where? I can't imagine a sucker hanging over alien or hanging over some of this stuff. That's kind of known for big fish going. Ah. We got Cisco's doing their thing on top.
Speaker 7
Well you got.
Speaker 2
You gotta you gotta think, too, right? Like these. These fish on eagle, they're no dummies, right? They're they. No pressure. They they see pressure and these big fish. It's getting tougher and tougher to be there when they're there and I don't think a lot of these big fish nowadays with the amount of pressure and you know forward facing solar are being put on these fish. I don't think a lot of these big fish are actually moving. To where we can target them effectively very often. And you know now we've had we're going to be on, you know, coming up two weeks here where pretty much everybody's off the lake. So now you have 0 pressure, you have the Cisco and white fish on.
Speaker
It's.
Speaker 2
You know like. Who knows what could happen out there?
Steven:
It it's it's kind of like one thing.
Speaker 2
Right. You have these big hits that have. Been stuck in the mud all. Year.
Jay:0
Yeah.
Speaker 2
And this is the time. You're they're forced. To go shallow, you know.
Steven:
It it it's, it's it's almost talking about it and the same with with Lake of the woods where with coop it it this is a rare opportunity. Rare, rare, rare, rare opportunity, rare.
Speaker 4
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was just.
Steven:
Go ahead. Yeah, you're good.
Speaker 4
Looking back here, the last time we were able to stay on the lake this late was 2015. You know, I'm. I'm normally last year I called the build out like on the 19th I think, but I should have pulled it out about a week earlier. But the last time we had been able.
Jay:0
MHM.
Speaker 3
Speaker 4
To really the last time we really were able to get out and fish when fishing was good this late into the season was 2015, so.
Steven:
In in Coop I you know, hearing from Danny, I know you're super busy, dude, and you know he said, you know, they they were having some sucker luck, but he said you were having some artificial luck during that last couple weeks. What what? What has been the presentation style for you on on Lake of the woods has been crankbaits. Rubber. What? What are you doing to convert right now?
Speaker 4
Well, I'm. I'm big on that vertical jigging. I've been working on that a long time and and so I I really love doing that. They do you know we just came out.
Jay:0
Hell yeah.
Speaker 4
Of a window. Where you know when it's about 52 to 48° there's a window where you got to be casting, and so we're casting like pounders and stuff. Last week and now now we've dropped below that 48 and we're back down over. You know, we're fishing vertical again and and. I started using more tubes for jigging, like probably five years ago or so and they really are probably the best hookup percentage, but I like. I like all kinds of, you know, even even some big spoons like some of those big, large mall spoons that they used on the ledges or whatever, like I use catching fish on some of those and.
Jay:0
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4
Stuff like that so.
Speaker 3
That, that, that.
Speaker 4
But it's tough to be the tube. When it comes to fishing vertical.
Steven:
That's funny. You say that like the there if, where I'm at Musk ever is like, there's muskies here. What? You know they're I'm I'm a fool amongst bass anglers here. And and and and kind of the South is like where every professional bass singer comes from. You'll see 12 inch spoons for jigging bass.
Jay:1
Yes.
Steven:
And it's funny you said that, which was the tactic of. Here's a big shade or a skipjack or whatever it might be on the vertical fall.
Jay:0
Yeah.
Steven:
Do you do you like the slower fall with a spoon in those water temps? Is it like a? Is it a flash thing is a vibrational thing? What kind of the thing that would gravitate you towards a spoon? For that tactic.
Speaker 4
Or. Honestly, probably just trying to find something that no one else is using and but it's it's.
Steven:
Fairpoint. Yeah.
Speaker 4
The flutter, the flutter and the way you can really, you know, spot lock and then let that thing you know flutter down, way off to the side and RIP it back in from around you like it's that's that's a great way to do it too.
Steven:
Let me ask you this with the with the stain, the tanic nature of of lake. Of the woods, right? Are you focused on making sure like in this time frame is it a level of light penetration when you you want to make sure all your presentations are below the level of light penetration or is it, is it purely a water temperature thing for your target depth range?
Speaker 4
Well, I guess yeah, the light penetration probably I'm probably not taking that into account unless I'm like reeling them up towards the surface. There's definitely before we go through that 52 to 48 is they won't even come less than about 12 feet. But it seems like at the end here when.
Steven:
I understood. That that's what. Yeah. Like what?
Speaker 4
Drop box boarding.
Steven:
Then that's what I'm getting is like is there a cutoff for like OK, if that baits at 10 feet, there's no way they're gonna like cross that. There, and I'm sure I I don't know for a fact. But you it sounds like you're using live image like. I. Do right, so there's this magic wall where you could be jigging a freaking ham sandwich. It doesn't matter, but there's a point that fish will not cross, right? And he's just like no way, dude, forget about it. You brought it up to 8.
Speaker 4
Yeah.
Steven:
Sweet. I'm out. You know, kind of a magical wall.
Speaker 4
That that's a very lucky.
Jay:1
Huh.
Speaker 4
Yeah, it's low light like morning and evening is the only time you can. Get him to come through that barrier.
Jay:0
MMM.
Speaker 4
Or or heavy overcast.
Speaker 2
That's that's that's a very wild, you know, thing that you brought up because I saw it all fall, you know, I was using four. I was using forward facing to basically.
Steven:
Yeah, buddy.
Speaker 2
Walk my clients through the cadence and the depth of which I wanted their bait to come in at, and if they would work that bait at, you know, 11 and 12 feet down.
Steven:
Past that.
Speaker
Yeah.
Speaker 2
You would get fish engaging the bait. You know very regularly, but then the minute they would see a fish or get excited or something, they'd be working that bait.
Jay:0
Right.
Speaker 2
98 feet down, you would not get a follow, they would not.
Speaker 8
Can't.
Speaker 2
Even engage the bait.
Steven:
Do you know why?
Jay:1
Steven:
I'll tell you something, spooky. We're we did this on the podcast A while ago. Total nerd out, everybody and I apologize. And some. Some there there. There's not a nerd that count out. Nerd. Me and doctor Bob.
Speaker 4
No.
Steven:
Your angles of the sun for you guys in the late fall is like me in the South, where the angle of the sun at a certain distance down is the same as peak summer. Because the way the Earth tilts back.
Jay:2
- Ohh.
Steven:
So the the the angle of cut changes as soon as the earth tilts towards the sun in the summer. In the northern hemisphere versus in the winter, there's a level of light penetration that changes, which is the barrier, that barrier they can't see, they can't sub 10 past. So their the the curvature of their eyes can't see past it, so they. Don't cross it. But anyway, whatever, let's all let's all freaking.
Speaker 4
Don't ****.
Speaker 2
Crazy my my mind is.
Steven:
No, it shouldn't be but. But if you think if you think about it cause like the Earth what's happening and then you see it like live imaging, I would never.
Speaker 3
That's sick.
Steven:
Believe it before. But so is the earth when it rotates around the sun, it tilts on an axis, right? And until our core melts and we're all dead. But as the earth changes on the axis, the angle of light penetration changes, and it happens earlier in the north and later in the South. And so when you'll see that late fall bite where they won't break 10.
Jay:
Yeah.
Steven:
Feet.
Speaker 3
But they'll they'll.
Steven:
They'll smash the top water in July. It's about what they can see and what they can't. But.
Speaker 4
Yeah, refraction or whatever when the.
Steven:
Yeah, it's simply that, I mean, it's just like I I was working on the next book here and whatever, that's a plug, but I'm working on the next book. And I said it's like try try to catch a football on a pair of headlights.
Speaker 2
So are you here? So are you telling me we need to? We need to have like 15 foot rods in the fall to Figure 8 down below 10 feet.
Steven:
I can show you video of me in January figuring with my arms in the water.
Jay:0
Yeah.
Steven:
So doctor Bob?
Speaker 4
Or we just get a. Big umbrella to hang over the boat.
Steven:
Well, the problem is this. It's ridiculous because it like a big umbrella that would be nice and it now it's funny because like my biggest my biggest time and and we're talking. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be up to Sir hijack but like. One of my better things that happens for me is January. Right. In Tennessee. And my biggest nerd friend, I love him to death. He's a physics professor, by the way. And we worked out the math of sun angle of why that works for me and the way the light breaks and the way the angle of the sun is for me in January is the same as July in Canada. And you're going well, if you if you think about it, I mean the, the, the where I'm sitting this where you're sitting, we're we're 20.
Speaker 4
That's crazy.
Steven:
Hours apart and the the angle I'm going. Why is the afternoon so good? Cause he said you're an idiot. At 2:00 in Tennessee in January. It's the same angle. Of course they're gonna come up. It doesn't matter. Water temperature. They just can't freaking see.
Speaker 4
Yeah, yeah. It's about the same time. I can't see my grass cause the sun.
Steven:
Then.
Speaker 4
Is glaring off. I'm so bad.
Steven:
There. Yes, Sir. Thank you. Thank you. And that's The thing is like the the when the graph hits and it bounces off the graph, you know and. You go ah. Whatever. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to nerd out, but Joe just hit on that thing of like, because.
Speaker 4
No.
Steven:
It it's kind of nerd, nerd, gasm and a lot of people going. This guy's full of **** but, well, whatever. But it's it. It's the their ability to. Me, because I'm just to. I'm just going to ask you both right. So. We're talking, let's say that spectrum we.
Jay:0
Love to fish?
Steven:
40 to 70 right 30°. When a muskies active between 40 and 70, how much body language change? Do you guys see? For a hot 1, right?
Speaker 4
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2
I mean. I wouldn't say a whole lot like in the fall. I'd say the cooler water, the cooler water, they get even squirrely air in the fall and they'll they'll hang around the boat. At least the eagle ones, the eagle ones. It seems like year after year. They hate the boat more and more and more.
Steven:
Now.
Jay:0
Right. Yeah.
Speaker 2
And this fall, I mean, I had fish going around, you know, 10/12/15 times in. The Figure 8. UM, in the summer you'd be lucky to have one go around one or two times and like so I think they're just they're more geared, more geared towards eating in the fall, right versus in the summer. It's just kind of let's check it out and follow it around type of deal.
Steven:
And I just asked that because like it's a body language thing, we always think like I actually explained the reason I went there. I explained yesterday to somebody in the OR two days ago in the boat what snake he meant, right. I had this fish come in on a 10 inch man. I went, man, I can't live. Ain't getting me a snake here in hell, you know, which was. Fired up and you know the body language hit this thing looks like a a spring coming in. You know he's not this straight law and you guys know the difference when a muskie comes in, he looks like a silhouette of a muskie and his tails barely flipping right. We're probably not going to catch him, but when he's asked up or snaky. Or what do you say to Annie Squirrely?
Jay:0
Yeah.
Steven:
What are you? What are you doing, Danny?
Speaker 2
Yeah, all my kids talking to me about his grandpa's guns right now. He wants to go shoot some more guns here shortly. I'm raising. I'm. I'm raising. I'm raising a little redneck hillbilly.
Steven:
Hell yeah, he does. No doubt, no doubt, freaking. But what? You you said squirrely and I think what we're both saying and Coop probably to agree and Jay as well. When there's curvature to the body, right? They're they're they're under. Does that make sense? Are we saying the same thing, or are we thinking the same thing where the fish has motion?
Speaker 2
Yeah, especially when they, especially when they get up on like a top water walk, the dog top water, a zigzag glide based or something like that, you see them get all.
Steven:
You're like Darty darty. Yeah, yeah. Let let me ask you this coop. So. You know you're you're doing the jigging thing. Which which I love vertical jigging. I think John Bonnie had the best idea in the last 20 years of muskie fishing. Admittedly so. But. When you're doing that on the daily basis and you're dialed in, I know you're dialed in like hell up there. At those kind of depths below the level of light penetration, do you feel that it's a vibrational profile or do you feel like downsizing can change it like because you're doing tubes, you're doing vertical jigs. You're doing all this different stuff. How does one change it up for vertical jigging, you convert more fish.
Speaker 4
And that's that's the that's the like thing that that's the question I've always been asking myself. And, you know, one thing I really liked about the tubes was how they sit. They sit horizontal, especially in a little bit of current. But even even when they're sitting in no current, they do kind of dip a little bit, but. But yeah, I mean the. The vibration is a big part of it. I rig my blades a little different on the tube. I I kind of rigged the blade right to the harness and not just to the back hook, and I feel like that kind of creates more vibration throughout the whole body of the base and or.
Steven:
Up up the shaft wire, yeah.
Speaker 4
Maybe helps it that way. Yeah, yeah, I I use like I make a little chunk of bucktail wire with a loop on each end that I slide on before I put the back hook on, and then I heat shrink that so it keeps it straight back. That way your back hook is is like free play and in that blade it's kind of working through the whole body of the base more so than just the back hook, you know.
Jay:0
Right.
Steven:
Well, that that's why you're on the podcast. Cause you he just folks, what he's saying is that hunk of wire is a resonance. Piece of metal that's so basically I love it. So you've got you've got the back wire, you've got the cleverest attached and that chunk of wire is resonating. The churn of the cleverest and.
Jay:
Interesting, yeah.
Steven:
The blade right.
Speaker 4
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, if you just put it on the back hook like some guys, you, you, you just that back hook is really wobbling around a lot when you're pulling it by. If you break it right through and I've actually even melted down some jigs to make it so that that wire that the back hook is on and that and that back blade is on goes all the way into the lead on the head, and then that really makes it more rigid and the whole thing I think really is. It like the vibration maybe like goes through the water, I don't know. But I mean I just. Like rigging them that way.
Steven:
No. What you what you're saying? I mean, I'm a nerd, but. It's it's one of those things of, like the the more surface there you have that's resonating. It's more, it's more frequency, it's more vibration which is me and me and Danny will steal this. You know that while we're making bats, right, Danny and I are both writing notes, but it's it's it's brilliant, which is like kind of one of those things of like on the other hand. Where and we should. Let's like walk backwards. One thing I found this year and let's you know, we're talking about. Now let's talk about. Say mid summer, July, August when everybody was there, right? Me and Danny lost a muskie tournament cause we're hungover as hell. One thing that I found was I was making my Bucktails out of the longest shaft where I could find with really small skirts, right? So I had a ton of wire out there. I didn't even I could have tied my my braided line straight to the bucktail and had no qualms of losing a fish from a leader, right? I was basically extending my Bucktails 8 to 9 inches past where the clevises and the blades were to increase vibration, but have a smaller profile which is. I think the same thing you're doing where you're using the resonance or the the vibration of the wire to increase that entirely. You know what happened for both of you, like July and August like that prime Muskie time. What was the Reed Joe for like like it was during that time? Was it different this year or were you were you doing traditional things? What was kind of your thought process during that prime muskie time?
Speaker 4
Well, that high water was a big factor and and I think one of the things that that affects most is the water temperature and even though our surface temps had reached that mid 70° range which you would kind of consider to normally put that the fish into their like mid summer patterns where you're fish.
Jay:0
Prime yeah.
Speaker 4
And and they they weren't there. They weren't in. Those places and. I think with the high water, the water column. As a whole. Was not really warming up the way it it would normally I guess, and so the fish you were finding them in weeds and kind of stuck you, it was like you were stuck in a post spawn transition period.
Jay:0
Really.
Speaker 4
- For the majority of the Midsummer there you know where it was, like the big fish weren't really showing up very consistently. And you were fishing kind of the back of Bay weeds. And there'd be like, all of a sudden, 3 or 4 days where you'd start finding a few good fish on mid Lake Humps and Main Lake stuff. But then all of a sudden, you know, you'd.
Jay:0
MHM.
Speaker 4
You have a cool night or or storm comes through and cools things down a bit in your in your back up in the stuff that you'd normally be fishing the end of June or beginning of July so.
Steven:
Danny, what was what?
Speaker 4
That that was kind of when I think.
Steven:
Ohh, go ahead Jeff. Sorry.
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 4
I'm done.
Speaker 2
Oh, it was, I would agree with Joe how? Like. The the cold spring, the high water kind of. The fish didn't progress as fast and do what they normally. Do on a. On a seasonal basis, the only difference for me was I didn't have a real solid. You know, dependable weed bite. My my the fish on Eagle I was encountering stayed deep for most of the year until free turnover and turnover like the average fish I was catching was. You know, 12 to 20 feet on on the spot they were using. So I was forced to.
Speaker
You.
Speaker 4
Well.
Speaker 2
Throw heavier Bucktails threw that grenade quite a bit this year for Muskie mayhem. You know the the head forward basically reverse bucktail cause I could get it down 6 to 8 feet on a cast or you know, a lot of the other Bucktails. I was double weighting. That was night one nice thing with that, that savage gear with the clip on weight system I was. Clipping on 2/3 additional weights on that to get that bucktail down. It's not that the fish didn't want Bucktails, but they just didn't want to come up that that hard, that fast to chase the bucktail. So you had to get down and get in front of their face.
Speaker 3
Hmm.
Steven:
Let me let me ask this.
Speaker 2
But you know the the two boards, the two boards, my killer for most of the summer.
Steven:
So let let's look at July, right. Just July you guys think about I was I was on the goon is is is Danny knows and coops over on like the with. Was it a matter of frontal movement? Was it a matter of light penetration? Was it matter? Was it a matter of staging? There was a water tent because I remember calling you Danny like before I headed up there. You went over on a wall. I turned around walking. And you're like, dude, it's like. The water is like 52.
Jay:0
Steven:
Do you think it was water temp what? Or or was it frontal? Was it like a lack of frontal movement?
Speaker 2
I think it was. It wasn't. There wasn't a frontal deal. It was a. I mean, I think solar. It was just like what Joe said. It was bang on the water, stayed colder. And then when it did warm up, we just had that little layer of warm water and the whole other part wasn't, you know, is equally. As warm. So you had, you know, a surface layer. What seemed warm water and then it was just cooler underneath. I really do believe that. And that's why those fish were kind of weird all year. And I mean. I mentioned the other day when I was talking with Joe. Like when you have a season where musky season opens up the third Saturday of June and there's musky, still spawning spawning, yeah. That you're you're set that whole season. You're so far behind the 8 ball and then when you have a colder than normal spring like that you're they they never caught up, they never could get caught up. They were just, you know, behind they were just stuck. Like you said, in a transitional thing all year they could never catch up. For this season.
Steven:
Well, let me throw this your way. Tell me what you think, because this is where my brain was and I'm willing to be wrong. And I, you know. The way I viewed it this year. Was we never got the extreme warm up right. We never got the. Consistency and and and I always look at Muskies as they they want stability because as apex predator you want stability to know where I should stage. How I should stage to be the most effective predator, right? I felt like the patterns as far as weather warm up, climactic change really didn't establish ever. That made the shallow zone. The preferred zone more than hanging out on the 1st break or the mid depth zone where you go? Well, I've got plenty of stability here at mid depth, so I'm gonna hang out here. Why would I go up here where it's very unstable or unstable? Does that make sense?
Speaker 2
Jay:0
Speaker 2
100 percent, 100% and 2 like this year. Like we had such shifty wins and I think that's why a lot of those and I saw it all fall trying to find.
Jay:0
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2
Wait. And even, you know, like early fall, like, everything was moving around so much on a daily basis and it was so hard to kind of track their movements because you'd have a S wind for one day and then a West wind. And then, you know, a north wind and then a bow back South and then. And all of a sudden you get an east wind for two days, and it was just like a toilet bowl. It just kept swish swashing around all year, and nothing could be like, OK, I'm going to set up here because it's comfortable and I like it, and it's gonna stay like that. Everything was constantly moving.
Steven:
Yeah, it's stable. Yeah. Let me ask you this, coop, because like. I I've I've got. I've had. I've not got to fish with you, but I've unfortunately fish with Danny and we know how we all know how that turned out. He brought bad luck on to my boat. It was we. We're going to get with me and Dan. Like we're going to go to bed at 9:00. It's 4:00 in the morning and I'm like, give me. But right rolling around on the floor like crying. Telling bad stories, but nonetheless. I think of what what Danny does and what Steve Herbeck does, and when I'm on Eagle. It gives me a little more levity in my boat control because, OK, I go to the Western arm, Dan, I'm gonna burn anything. Right, but. We go to the Western arm where? If I drift off a spot a little bit, I'm provided a ton of more depth in my casting presentation. Where Coop, I think of what you're doing, especially up in the angle. That's typically a shallow water fishery. How much have you had to adjust your boat control to accommodate what's happening? With the with the staging and the preferences of Muskies throughout this entire year.
Speaker 4
Well, one thing that I I seem to have. A tougher time doing for some reason is is getting myself into that shallower water like getting getting back into the bays and stuff. I don't know why. Why that's so hard for me to do I like.
Jay:0
MHM.
Speaker 4
Keeping the boat. Uh.
Jay:1
And.
Speaker 4
Kind of off, typically, like if I'm fishing rocks especially I'm keeping the boat all in. Maybe like 12 or 15 feet, depending on on the stuff that I'm fishing. I like. I like working crank baits. I find a lot of big fish on like that six foot shelf or something like that. But this year that just wasn't working for me and so I had to kind of force.
Jay:0
Right, yeah.
Speaker 4
Myself to to get up into the back end of those bays and.
Steven:
Really.
Speaker 4
It's it's definitely a little foreign to me to do that.
Steven:
It seems like you know there's two schools of thought on like the woods, which is what, what you typically do, which I think is a very.
Speaker 3
The.
Steven:
What you're doing is more conducive to big fish more consistently right? Where when I'm on like the woods and a fish with other people, they're that they're like, making little pop shots up in the back. The boats in five. And they're throwing to four inches. Right. I'm. I'm just making it up. It's really not that shallow, but. Where you're I think you run a big fish. Man and others are in that super tight thing. Like does that flux throughout this pattern this year it would did. Was there ever a time or like OK 15 feet where I need to be casting because you know as guys we all know you need you need a modicum of time for that fish to close the deal regardless. Has it been like the the shallower water less water the low water high water. Has played that to how you've had to augment your boat control. Like just is it a water level thing or is it a staging thing?
Speaker 4
I guess I think it's like. I think it's like a water temperature water level thing. I guess maybe where? They're they're trying to get into the where there's more stable and and warmer water, but I guess you know, like I didn't really wasn't really able to start fishing like how I normally would until. September pretty much where you know I and even in September was when they they were still like for for that tournament, we do all the nests or falls, they were still like running real shallow and you know I I guess most of the time I'm.
Steven:
Wow.
Speaker 4
Right. I'm just a big crankbait guy, like, throughout the entire season. I really enjoyed the crank bait and.
Jay:0
Works. It works, yeah.
Speaker 4
Yeah, a lot of confidence on cranks. And so that was one thing, you know this year I I was not able to run the cranks of course, like through those weeds and everything but. I guess as far as what you're asking, I mean the I was just trying to get to where the fish were at and and with where they were setting up for the majority of the season, I had to get us in out of my comfort zone and start like. Kicking up dust with the trolling motor. So.
Steven:
Heck yeah. What? Something just another. Question for there Coop. There's a lot of current and I I think a guy like you know, he said guys on his third trip to lake of the woods and the angle he doesn't realize how much current is taking place. Right. And I don't think a lot of people realize that that, that lake of the woods eagle locks all, all all are moving water, right. There, there's outflows, there's inflows, there's all this different stuff, that there's current and there's neck downs. Do you capitalize like this time of year, but with your vertical jigging game plan, is that a current base thing or is that a wind based thing when when are you like, OK, I'm going to set up on Lake of the woods, I'm going to try to find. Like productive past that I can guide for say the next two weeks in a vertical vertical jigging thing or a spoon jigging man or tube jigging man or what is it? Is it based on current? Is it based on based on structure or is it based on cover? What what? What's kind of your thought process there?
Speaker 7
Well, it really.
Speaker 4
Is current related most of the time and one advantage we have at the angle is. There's, I mean, there's really not very many areas in the OR in this portion of the lake where current isn't a factor, I mean. It's you got. 60 miles of water just to the South of us from. East to West and and it is next down. To about from the. Western shoreline to the eastern shoreline, where the water can flow is only about. 16 or maybe 18. I think about 16 miles and that of course, that 16 miles is filled with islands. So you got currents all over the place and even where you think there might not be any, it's moving and. There is like the heavy current areas, the major neck down, areas where there's open water throughout the entire season, you know, entire winter, the water stays open. That's going to be like the really obvious current areas and that's where you'll find the majority of the guys that go out and dig but. I I definitely am fishing. Just about every spot. As if. There's heavy and noticeable current there. There is current that the fish are using. It just may not be as usable or as noticeable to us on the surface, you know.
Steven:
Is it? Is it enough to so? So let's say we set up like nose into the current, right? So the the the currents pushing at the transom and the nose of the boats leading us. In some of these places where you're looking for these late fall muskies, is it enough to get the jig ahead or behind the boat? Or is it subtle?
Speaker 4
It's there's definitely a lot of places where it's enough to to, like, sweep your lower away from under the boat, and when it's that strong, I actually try and keep the boat moving along and keep our fates straight down. And I that kind of goes back from the quarter.
Steven:
Taste, yeah.
Speaker 4
Forward facing sonar when I was just trying to. Keep the bats within view of the sonar.
Jay:0
Yeah, good joke.
Speaker 4
But if I'm able to drift along. If we're able to drift along with the current and just let the current take the boat down the brake line, that's awesome. Like that's really nice though.
Steven:
Yeah. What? What? What do you say with with?
Speaker 4
When when's going against the current? I hate that.
Steven:
With. Ohh that detail. Well that that's a listen, this is the this is the guide problem. We're just sitting here going. How do I pace this boat? You know, it's it's it's I. I was working on that equation. I was writing some stuff that I like boat control and how we approach a spot. Do we work in to work out which is like just guiding him? Well, but isn't it funny though? Like how you if if you're spending this much time vertical jigging, I'm guessing you did this before forward facing too and. You look at how you approach it now versus how you did it when you had didn't have forward face and you just kind of go through the spot and you're like ohh, I'm hung on a tree 40 feet behind the boat. It was a different, I think a different headspace. How much? Because I I I I'm just. It's a loaded loaded question. I found myself when? When? I would jig before I had forward facing. Was very consistent. It was like a foot up a foot down, lower the foot up a foot down lower. Then I get it and now I'm seeing Muskies come in behind a Bondi or a tube or whatever. It might be. And I'm adding too much and I'm getting less strikes. How did you balance that? Because I know you see it as well. You have to where you see the fish behind the jig and you overreact or you underreact? What is your thought process when you see a fish that's coming in on this this vertically jig presentation, how are you reacting now to convert more?
Speaker 4
Well, I one thing the forward facing really taught me is. Is that you know, before, before I head forward facing is basically like OK, fine, bottom and then get the hell away from it. Otherwise you're gonna be getting snagged. And I don't wanna deal with that. But I found that now I found that.
Jay:0
Yeah, I don't wanna deal with.
Steven:
Yeah, I'm mad now. Yeah. Ohh. I've been. Yeah. You bent the hooks. Great. Moving on there.
Speaker 4
Yeah, I'm.
Jay:
What?
Speaker 4
I'm caught. I'm like, how long have you been snagged? Why didn't you tell me? You know, and it's like your line is.
Steven:
For a month.
Speaker 4
1/4 mile behind us, man.
Steven:
I got cut you off. I have a great story. And this is the dumbest **** ever. I apologize and I have a witness. That's a podcast listener on the boat, right. I'm jigging with this dude on my boat. And he goes. I'm hung. And we're and we're in a river that has about a mile and a half current all the time I go set the F the hook. Right. I see the right. It's not hung. Snags don't bang right.
Speaker 3
Huh.
Steven:
He sets the hook and it he actually, I take this back. He doesn't set the hook until I grab it and set the hook and we're down to the backing, which I didn't realize. And I've broke the backing. Right. Hey, a week later, I catch a fish that has about 400 yards of braided line.
Jay:0
Yeah.
Speaker 3
It's in a body bag.
Steven:
So I gotta. I got my Bondi bait back out of the other side of his mouth. Right, which is a whole different story. I digress. But what were you saying? I'm apologize. That say you're you're playing the game.
Speaker 4
Well.
Steven:
With snagged or what? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4
Yeah. So like I would get away from bottom. I'd have everybody get up and away from bottom before. And what I saw with the forward facing was that the fish are a lot more likely to eat the bait that the less distance they have to come out of their hiding spot to to inspect it. Like if they have to come way up from bottom all the way up to.
Jay:0
Yeah.
Speaker 4
You know halfway. To inspect the baby before they eat it, they they oftentimes wouldn't do it well. Then once I started sliding along with my stuff as close to bottom, you know, maybe like two to four feet off. Yeah. And then a lot more subtle jigging, too. I would always have them before, like, big rips like you want them to be feeling that blade pump when you RIP it. And and I actually. When I'm when I'm just drifting along with currents, I I'm pretty subtly like the rod tip stays low. You don't even really have to be making big rips, and it's like those fish are hiding behind, you know, either a dip or a rock or something when you're in heavy current, they just sit right behind it. And your bait just comes sliding right over top of that, that current block that they're sitting behind, and it's just like there's, they just grab it. I mean, it's like infants and.
Jay:0
MHM.
Steven:
Yeah, they do it or they don't. Yeah.
Speaker 4
Yeah. Yeah, totally. I mean, that's the same is.
Speaker 3
When you say that like.
Speaker 4
That's the other thing I've learned.
Steven:
When you're doing that and you say like your rod angle or whatever. I've changed because again, I think we all kind of went to the the Church of John Bondi for a second and you're watching that where it's like when he started and and this is, you know, here, here's a guy and to his testament and lovely he's done. And he started the whole jigging craze. We got a guy that's crazy enough. He has a hand tiller trolling motor out of the front of his boat. That's a whole other conversation, right? Which props to him. And he was kind of at chest level when he's jigging, right when he first started doing it in those channels. Where you said you're rotting. Are you keeping your rod angle towards the surface of the water? Is it like a I'm touching the water and lifting up, or you take keeping at chest level? What's kind of your your preferred rod angle?
Speaker 4
I I like to keep your odd pointed down towards towards the water and that just gives you more room to set the hook.
Jay:0
Yeah. For hooks. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4
And and then especially. If you do jig up and they hit it at the top of your jig motion, you're not high stick. You know it's like you. You still got room to cut the hook.
Jay:0
Yeah.
Steven:
Which which is guys, if you don't know a high stick which is like if you're digging your chest and lifting up because if you think about it let's say we have an 86 rod or a nine foot. But that that is now 1112 feet off the water when the when the angle is raised when you can't really physically sit. On the fish that's hitting down, Danny, have you? Have you done much of that? Like, say, the like the outflow eagle or is it more of the the burbot tube bottom bounce is it, is it a different?
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.
Steven:
Ball game.
Speaker 2
It's a different. I mean, maybe I'm not. Exploring it to its fullest potential, I I do more casting versus jigging just because the only. We don't get like real visual current. All ours is wind driven on there, especially like this year. There was no pretty much shot all year. So we had no actual natural flow of the lake other than wind driven current and with the wind switching so much, we didn't have any real.
Speaker 4
Natural.
Speaker 2
Wind driven current, you know, present it would never. It would never you never have a wind out of the same direction and update to build the current right so.
Steven:
Let me ask you this, and this is for my own sake, cause I've seen it out. You've spent me again. I love Eagle, but Danny, Danny is born and raised. I think he was conceived on Eagle. Probably. Like if we get from Hudson right, Hudson Bay outpost to the outflow of the river, and we're going down from from say say if you triangulate from Hudson to three sisters, is there not a current push there on like the outside topography or what is it you think it's still wind?
Speaker 2
I think it's all wind. I mean just well on a like a few years ago when we had that really high water and they had this dam pumping.
Jay:0
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're ridiculous.
Jay:
You could see.
Speaker 2
You could there was like, you know, a natural flow to the lake, especially when it was called.
Jay:0
MHM.
Speaker 2
You could you could see the flow of the. Lake, but I mean. Overall, yeah, it's mainly 99% wind driven current we're dealing with there and you know I don't vertical jig enough there. Maybe I should and maybe it's something that I'm missing the boat on. It's just I always you know we're so a lot of the structures are so big. To jig you know one line. You know, if you were, you'd have to use your towing motor and you know, follow the contour of the structure or you're only covering.
Jay:0
Yeah.
Steven:
A fraction.
Speaker 4
You know.
Speaker 2
A fraction of it. You'd spend literally all day making different drifts along it. Or, you know, you know, start a jig line at 20. Then your next one's at 17. Your next one's at 15. Well before you know it, you're there for three hours jigging something when you could cast it in 20 minutes, you know.
Steven:
Right, right to to, to have have some saturation. Well, you know, we just talked about kind of what you guys.
Speaker 4
That's pretty much exactly what I'm doing though.
Speaker 3
I'm sorry, that was great.
Speaker 4
I mean that is that's pretty much exactly what I'm doing. Like what you just explained is basically like that. That's exactly.
Jay:0
Sure.
Steven:
I can't know which is freaking hilarious in my head. I'm I knew it too. That's why I'm laughing so early.
Speaker 4
What I'm doing?
Steven:
Who on their who in their freaking right mind would want to find a spot and drifted multiple times and hit all the brake lines and jigging. Welcome to setting and. And here's my thing. I knew it because I've been on the boat with Danny, right? It's like I we're talking about the cracking tube and everybody knows I love Danny. He made the Bourbon tube and all this stuff and, you know, cracking's a little like you don't have to Wang on it all.
Jay:0
Steven:
Day long, right? And I'm watching Danny. Danny Herbert cannot stand to not just be banging on something. Right. You're like Danny. You know it, dude, like Danny has to be banging on something which is vertical. Jigging, I know would drive him nuts. That's freaking.
Speaker 2
Well, I would be, I would. Be all for it. If I had like, you know, some sort of narrow or or something to concentrate the fish.
Jay:0
Right.
Speaker 2
Right, lot of this stuff is all Main lake giant structures that. I just, I mean, like I said, I'm not opposed to it. Maybe I'm being very narrow minded. Maybe I need to do it.
Steven:
The the the problem is this is it suck and is a guy guy. We got freaking three guys on here and Jay, who's been doing this longer than we all been love. And you look at it and you go alright, guys, if you look at your clients, you're like and and again and and it total respect and I have a couple of clients have gone with John Bondy and and and again I've done videos on his. Stuff and I love his stuff. But like. They're like, dude, we jig for like 8 hours and they look like they just came out of the killing fields of Vietnam, right. They're like, their eyes are peeled back like that. It's a hard. It's not the most action-packed activity for a guide client where if they don't feel like they're making the cast and they're ripping on something or not.
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Steven:
Doing anything? And I.
Speaker 2
Well, it's just like it's just the same. It's the same as trolling. You gotta believe in.
Speaker 3
It.
Speaker 2
You know, if it's the same as it's, I mean it's.
Speaker 4
Just it's it's.
Speaker 2
Lucky fishing across the board. Whether you're casting, trolling, jigging, whatever it may be, you gotta have faith that it's just gonna happen. It's not musky. Fishing isn't something like walleye.
Steven:
Faith, yeah.
Speaker 2
Fishing where you throw something in the water and you get an immediate result. You know you might it might. You know that that's the problem. You just you have to believe.
Steven:
Now exactly, yeah. You. You. I couldn't put it better because I tell people you gotta use the force which is my religion is Star Wars. You know, and you do you close your eyes and you reach out with the force and then something good happens, which is the same thing that you having faith in is it casting? Is it trolling? Is it jigging? And and those are kind of the only three methodologies we have but. It's, you know, it's a hard sell sometimes because, like you said, dude. You're going around. I I know where you're fishing, especially getting the Western. Like, how many times must we go around this for this to be productive?
Jay:0
Yeah.
Steven:
Joe, let me ask you this, Joe. Are you fishing live bait at all, Joe, or is that a yes or you like something you can do or you're doing or?
Speaker 4
I've I've actually never stuck her fist. I have never once been able to. I've never done that. And I, I mean, I'd like to, but at the same time, I don't know if there's anything more deadly than live scope in a tube. I mean, it's about as deadly as you can get out there with that, right?
Steven:
Create restrictions.
Jay:0
Yeah.
Steven:
Yeah, I I just didn't know because like I a lot of times and I'm gonna be there. Hopefully I I say I'm going to be there in a month and I probably won't be because the weather's been so weird, which is like I turn into the automatic jigger with the live bait, and I I've got, you know, my my clients are throwing rubber. I'm just. Thinking. And we got live bait, right. Which is why I asked because I didn't know if you done them in conjunction, but. What you just said, though, is like and again, this is a whole other animal where you go, you know how many live scripts you run. I think, Danny, you run one, I run one. I don't know you run whatever. But yeah, there's there's something to be said. And. And I'm getting there. I apologize. I'm trying to figure figure out how to. Articulate this the best. I would say live scope for me as a guide, I speak for only for myself. I don't want any. Well, I don't want to know what you 2 think. Life scope told me. That proximity to the fish matters than the actual presentation. Would you agree or disagree?
Speaker 4
100%.
Steven:
Was that Joe or Danny?
Speaker 4
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's. That was Danny said that one. But yeah, that's definitely. And. You know, yeah, definitely like you gotta. You gotta be in their zone.
Steven:
Yeah. And it's to engage. It's.
Speaker 4
I mean like, do you see it?
Speaker 2
You see it now. You see it now? Yeah, we like to make all these nice, big, fancy lures and we think they're the greatest things that I know. Some of those fish I could have put a 2 by 4 with the trouble hook. On it, dude, I did it.
Steven:
Yeah. Ohh, it went well. There's a bait called the cook years back that basically I I've made the joke which is like a hot. You know what?
Speaker 4
Oh, I love the poop. Those got the coop. He brings it out. Dude, I love the coop, man. I've, I've. I've been rocking, Coop.
Speaker 3
I'm talking about. I love you, Joe.
Speaker 4
Since forever, that's that's the last fish I caught on a coop with a 52.
Speaker 3
And a half man.
Steven:
Freaking shoot folks, if you wanna make your own cook at home. What is it? 2 by 4? Just be done. That's all. That's amazing. But it it's kind of my quintessential bait for like, well, I don't think they're visual. I don't think these are visual predators when it comes to a coup. I I I think proximity is is number one which I think about light penetration. I've made the joke with with clients on the ****. I could take a jig head and a hot dog and catch that fish, right. You know action action after that and vibrational profile but. You know, back on track here we talked about the early thing. We talked about that July, August. What was the early fall like for you guys? Pick your poison, Danny or.
Speaker 4
You take it away, Danny. Or what? You busy?
Speaker 2
Hold on. Should technical stuff going all good?
Steven:
Denny's Yard's on fire. His child found firecrackers.
Speaker 2
No, my, I'm. I'm back. I'm back on now, but go ahead, Joe.
Speaker 4
Oh, yeah, well, you know, the early fall was, was that kind of same thing, like with the water being a lot warmer all the way into October. It was. It was good though I I it kind of stayed with that same thing where, you know, it wasn't quite what. I I would normally be seen, but there was there was still those windows of of greatness that really made-up for the time we were grinding so, but they were setting up like how I'd normally find them, and that that was when, you know, my cranks finally started chilling us fish and everything. And but they really did, for the most part.
Speaker 3
MHM.
Speaker 4
Paying those weeds until it was like, cool enough for them to to move all down deeper so.
Steven:
Let me ask you this, you know, and and Danny, one thing I loved and this the guys in Aussie it's one of the first times I ever talked to Coop. Forever. But Danny, the first time I was sitting there is actually the night before that tournament where we we ate too much pizza and couldn't wake up early. Denny's like this guy's a crank baiter and I'm like I'm in right cause you know. I think of myself as a a slight crankbait aficionado. It's it's always helped pay my bills. When you're talking, you're a crankbait guy. What? What's kind of the Joe Cooper like, what's your stable of like, your shallow mid and deep crankbaits or what's what's your crankbait game plan on lake of the woods?
Speaker 4
Well, like the my number one bait probably has put more fish in that for me than anyone any other would be the Super Chad wrap. That thing is just so deadly in so many ways behind that. Jakes, I really love throwing Jakes the 8 inch and the 10 inch. I feel the 10 inch all season long.
Jay:0
MHM.
Speaker 4
But those are just, uh, like it comes down to it. I had to take two lures. That would be it. Yeah.
Steven:
Those are your stables. Yeah, staples. Do you throw when you're working so.
Speaker 4
Yeah. Keep the Chad wrapping.
Steven:
It's a baller bait.
Speaker 4
Yeah, man, that's a powerful bait, and it's overlooked by a lot of guys. And that thing, I mean like. The the some of the biggest fish I've ever had in the boat were on Super Chads and I love those things.
Steven:
Well, from casting to troubling them, let me ask you this and and I I I'm sitting here in what we call the bait cave on the podcast where I've got 7 billion everything and and and I inherited a gigantic herd of super shed reps from my dad and. You know, I've bought plenty myself, but we've caught a ton of fish on those. I've seen and and again you've probably thrown them more than I have. I've seen that bait produced in different ways by augmenting the running action via split rings, probably more than any other would crank bait. Are you seeing that as well, like in the early season, you'll run it with no split ring for a tighter thing and you open it up when the water gets warmer with it like say A7 or A6. Or is that something you're doing? Or what's your thoughts? They'll lose you. Hello.
Speaker 2
Ohh, he just texted me. He said his phone dropped the call.
Steven:
Ohh, call him back. We'll get him back. Here.
Speaker 2
I'll call him back. Hold on.
Steven:
We had a technical error there guys error. I said error. Anyway it gave me a bathroom break. So Coop was talking about the the the. Super Shad rap and how great it is. I was asking you, coop, if you if we can refresh. Do you open up the action with that bait by changing split rings at all where it tightens in widens? Or is that something you're thinking about?
Speaker 4
The the I guess the one way I kind of modify it is I just put a little heavier books on and I find that raise it down just to.
Speaker 2
Well.
Speaker 4
To run it, it runs a. Little deeper and that.
Jay:0
Yeah.
Speaker 4
And that rise is just a little slower.
Steven:
Right. Which is probably with the heavier hooks tight. OK, I I see what you're doing there. And anybody wanted to know these figure that out. So let me ask you this, Danny. Seeing super Shad rap, we're talking flip it over to Eagle. That primetime, that fall thing. What? What was what was the quintessential Danny Herbeck presentation this year?
Speaker 2
Well, you know, like the Bucktails were overall dead, like all summer. I mean, catching sporadic fish on Bucktails not not like it typically normally is. But then you know, we got kind of in the September and the Buck Hill bike kind of picked up and I caught quite a few fish on Bucktails but then.
Jay:0
Yeah.
Speaker 2
You know, the once again, that Burba tube was, you know, kind of my killer, but then we introduced that new.
Steven:
Oh wonder. Wonder. Wonder why? Why did you throw the burbot tube, Danny?
Speaker 2
Savage cocktail doctor.
Speaker 8
Hmm hmm.
Speaker 2
And but no, the that that cross tail soccer. Honestly, I think the fish were kind of starting to get a little tubed. Out.
Jay:0
Yeah.
Speaker 2
Everybody was throwing weather at, you know, whatever make model they were throwing. But that cross tail soccer was definitely. Probably this fall I put a bunch of fish in it and some really big fish in it. I mean, it was a. You know it's a triple tail design and it's, but it's a little bit different. You can fish it a little bit faster like you know how I like to really RIP and pull on things pretty hard and aggressively and it.
Jay:0
Yeah.
Speaker 2
It allows you to fish, you know, a big triple tail bait deeper and faster than anything out there on the market. And I think that was something that. Was really making the difference. You were able to get, you know, a big profile down and really move it around and the versus, you know, some of those big triple tail, quad tail type designs, they kind of a more slow methodical presentation which they work great. But at times you need to really RIP and pull on things to trigger fish. And I think that was. And coupled with the fish they've never seen. They you know, that was a brand new bait that they'd never seen. And it kind of, I know I had about 15 of them in my boat and I know every day I jumped in my boat, there was one left and another last before I knew it. I had like 3 left in my boat and I'm like, where the hell are all these bases disappearing to? Or guess whose boat they were in?
Jay:0
Now.
Steven:
You're giving. Steve O's.
Speaker 2
The magical little what else Steve Herbeck was.
Steven:
Oh my God, the worst.
Speaker 2
Down to my boat in the wee hours of the night taking. He basically would.
Speaker 3
What else?
Speaker 2
Look for ones with teeth marks, teeth marks on them and take them, and then I'd be left with with new ones to throw and.
Steven:
Break in. I love your dad, but he is the biggest bait grub I've ever met.
Speaker 2
Ohh if you if you catch a fish on a bait you better make it up and tell him the complete opposite or that bait's gonna be gone.
Jay:0
He's.
Steven:
Dude like Ohh I moving on. He's called me sometime. You got any of these? You know or like literally last time I fished everything I did come up short on about four baits, right. And you're like, oh, son of a. Anyway, it's hilarious.
Jay:
Well, it's interesting. I mean the guys been doing it for way longer than any of us and he still has to have something different. You know, just like, oh, this is cool, you know, and it's working. I wanna try. I have to try.
Speaker 2
So.
Steven:
It I'll tell you something I'll learn.
Speaker 2
Well, I heard. You know, I I heard. I heard someone goes catching them on these bases. I better get some.
Steven:
Yeah. Well, and you're when your dad. Excuse me. When? When you've been doing as long as your dad has. You start noticing the differences, and I think a lot of people, you know, you go like Cooper saying he likes a 10 inch Jake. Well, A10, you know, a nine inch grandma or whatever. You look at him once you realize the nuanced nature. Of a bait. That's where I think lure selection really becomes interesting, because you go ohh I think the average anchor goes Bulldog Medusa. They both do the same thing. Well OK. But Steve Herbeck caught me a open poor bulldog where it had a concave body ran differently than a new production bulldog. Where you start seeing this small differences is where it matters. Now that does not. That doesn't account for him stealing out of your boat.
Jay:
Well and and.
Speaker 2
Well, exactly too. But you know one one thing that you didn't touch on that I believe is making a a big difference is you know there's increase, there's there's.
Speaker 3
Yes.
Steven:
Doctor juice.
Speaker 7
Increase.
Steven:
Sorry, Danny Herbert. Guys, I gotta tell you, Danny goes out and smears himself down from head to toe in doctor juice, garlic scent every day.
Speaker 4
Increased markings.
Steven:
He just it's it's the key. Every time he touches the bait, he adds a little doctor juice to it, right.
Speaker 2
Ah, that's the key.
Jay:0
Sorry, moving on everything forward.
Speaker 2
Yeah, we D42D40 deep supplies away.
Steven:
Moving on.
Speaker 2
Moving on. But anyways, what like could go back on these little nuances and baits and subtleties? You know, back in the day, I don't think they really made it big of a difference 1. The fish weren't as pressured. You didn't have, you know, as many anglers on the water. And let's let's let's face it. The overall general public of anglers on the water are much smarter and more equipped now than they ever have been.
Jay:0
Yeah.
Speaker 2
Absolutely. So when you have these little subtle changes in bait that to us looking at them. Might not really think or look like that big of a change, but to those fish that have seen all these baits time and time again, that little difference.
Steven:
Trip through trigger? Yeah, absolutely. It's one of those things. Like you said, I mean. Again, being a complete nerd and you know I. You go. What if I could go back in time with the bulldog? You know what? If it's 1850 on Eagle? Imagine being it's 1850 on Eagle Lake and you're in a rowboat. How many? 50 inches could you catch with the bulldog? All of them. You know exactly where. Where?
Jay:0
Steven:
It's more nuanced it it is. I I I don't know what the age class, let's say A50 inch Muskie coop on on lake was held. How old's a 50 inch muskie? What's the average over there? Best guess.
Speaker
Yes.
Speaker 4
Oh gosh, I don't. I don't know of any studies that I would rely on. I think. I think it's like maybe 15 to 20.
Steven:
Yeah, just pull it out of your ***, though. OK. So 15 to 20.
Speaker 2
Let's wait 15. Let's say 15 to.
Steven:
20 OK, I don't know right. And then like where I'm at probably about the same. So let's just call it 1520. You got 15 to 20 seasons under your belt as a muskie. You've been caught on the buck double eights three times, right?
Jay:1
Yeah, I'd agree.
Steven:
You know, some guys from Illinois held you in the net for 8 1/2 minutes and you learned your lesson, right? And you got brain damage now from it. Yeah, you wouldn't want to fall for that same thing. But like you said, that small nuance thing makes the difference. Where? It's funny what? And I'm I'm trying to vote. To your point, I'm getting there, which is like. The less people that do something, I don't care if we'll talk about pickleball racquetball, you know. Freaking interpretive dance. The less people that do it. The bars weigh lower the more people that do it, the more nuanced the more dialed in. You have to be to. Excel. Does that make sense?
Speaker 7
We are.
Speaker 2
No, I agree 100.
Steven:
Percent, you know, like it's it it my favorite thing of all times, you know. And I love a good meme. Is. Is that girl that was in the Olympics from Australia that was like the worst break dancer ever. I don't know if you remember that. Yeah. You know, it's like, well, the bars pretty low down there. But we put her against some Chinese dude. That's, like, been popping and locking's all life where. Where you know the dude in the. The freaking the dude in the 70s buys his Death Raider and throws it out of the rock and catches the fish. Turn the handle fish on end where technology angling pressure exposure to a knowledge base. Because one thing I realized. And I contribute to it, Cooper and and Danny, we we both do the same thing. We are fighting ourselves on a daily basis now that you guys do the. Guest. You help people, but you have to elevate your game and I'll times like I think the more you guide, the more you realize how much nuance is important. Because, you know, I could take a Poseidon or a Magnus or a swimming dog. And get the most out of it, where most of what you're gonna see, angling pressure wise is thread out, turn the handle and I think that's where that difference comes from. I mean, how much like when you guys are guiding and it throwing a back, let's say we're throwing a coupe set a 10 inch Jack, right? That was your, your your favorite baby doll? Where? If we're throwing a 10 inch Jake, I guarantee coupe you know the rate of rise with the 10 inch check with different hooks or how it's going to react off of rock or how the different levels of pool you give it. Like how is that develop developed for you with it like a 10 inch Jack where you go? If I fish a tenant check with an extra heavy rod versus a medium rod versus a heavy rod, how that bait reacts? How would you explain that one? Coop.
Speaker 4
Well, you know, like I this there's like the RIP and paws retrieve, you know, with especially with the Jake that I and and there's times where the fish are just going where I where I find more luck like just straight retrieving it all the way in but most of the time I like that ripping pause and I it's like. I it's not just like a pull, it's like a hook set RIP, you know, and it's RIP, RIP and and. That's one of those things that I think kind of sets it up can can set that apart from like other guys that are throwing the same base is you gotta you gotta like RIP that thing and especially the last two rips before you come up to the dead rise like it's got to be, you know, hard rips and. There is times where you're better off, just like I said, like just straight retreat. But even when I straight retrieve all the way back to the boat, it's too hard. Rips into the into the ride before the Figure 8, you know and. It's just like I I find that it really is. You get, like, more bites when you're working it that way than if you were to just, you know, Hunky Dory retrieve or whatever.
Speaker 2
Right. Gotta be. You gotta be where you gotta be banging on him. Steven, you gotta be ripping and banging. That's how you get the bite.
Steven:
No, no, boys. That's why you're on my show. I'm lazy freaking. I gotta bump. I gotta bum shoulder.
Speaker 2
No, but one one thing I wanted to one thing I wanted to talk about is you know, everybody gets hung up on these rod actions and that to work base they are very important. But you know people.
Steven:
Danny Herbeck marks it with his mind.
Speaker 4
I do that.
Jay:1
I I wish I could, but you guys.
Steven:
Danny. DJ Danny, do you do drugs?
Jay:0
Thanks.
Speaker 3
Renee, Sir.
Speaker 2
No, but what? People get hung up on now are these high speed real. Yeah. Everybody's gotta have a high speed rail, and I find it actually works against you. When you're doing like on jerk. Baits rubber baits baits where you're putting action into it with a high speed. Really you have to train yourself to give Slack and allow that bait to work when you're ripping out a bait and you're winding as you're ripping all that that baits not going doing anything side to side. You're not incorporating any. Of the the mechanisms of.
Jay:
You're pulling, you're pulling the thing in horizontally. When you're doing that with the faster height, yeah.
Speaker 3
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2
Exactly. So like, I lean towards a lower gear ratio. I'd rather whine faster with less like less. Force on the real handle myself than to real slow and real. Really hard. Like, especially like cranking blades. But you know, all these bases are designed to. Turn sideways or you know, up, down, left, right. Those are all triggers to get these muskies to strike. And when you're using a high a high speed, high gear raser reel, you're taking all those triggering aspects of that bait and. You're throwing them. Out the door. That's why you're getting follows and then you might get them to bite at the bolt because on a figuring. What are you doing? You're changing direction. Well, that fish has been looking for that for 75 feet, which you haven't gave them to eat out. What? You.
Speaker 3
Want to really.
Jay:0
Yeah, yeah.
Jay:
Really. Good point, Danny. Yeah, we'll know.
Steven:
Now it's one of those things of of whether I'm doing a video with Muskie shop or when I'm like, trying to work for the. Client. When I when I'm doing a RIP pause motion I. Will. Raise my hand off the rail. It's like these are exclusive from one another. You RIP the bait and then you reel up the slack and it it. What? I think that's something I don't. I don't care if you're Cooper on leg of the woods or me in Tennessee or Danny on Eagle or wherever the hell you are. Or Jay in Wisconsin.
Jay:0
Yeah. Yeah.
Steven:
When abate means a pause, let the freaking thing pause. Stop fooling with it. And I think like. Exactly that that a lot of us think that the the real is what catches the muskie, that what happens from the rod tip, the vector of force from the rod tip through the bait is all that matters. All we're doing is picking up slack. And I think a lot of it, I mean, I I've fought, I've fought the same fight for a while, which is like. Everybody's first muskie. Not everybody's, but the vast majority of everyone's first muskie is on what they a freaking bucktail. What did they do? They turned the handle. Right. Say you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. I I don't know a lot of my anglers where their first muskie was on.
Jay:0
Yes.
Steven:
You know a 10 inch unweighted suit that their head to dial in themselves, tune the tail took out of the pack and tuned the nose right and they and they threw it at rocked and executed it perfectly over some weeds it. No, they they threw a freaking eagle tail and turned the handle.
Speaker 2
They threw a map for a top operator.
Steven:
Right, exactly. And you go well, you know, I wish I came up with either of those. I I wouldn't be doing this podcast anymore. But, you know, throw it out. Turn the handle, which what you're saying is, like with the burbot tube, RIP it up.
Speaker
Grateful.
Steven:
Don't turn the handle. Let the slack go out and then you do it right. Or you could take even a better bait, like a crack and and do the same thing. ******* I'm sorry on this. I got to play with it, but that's a great point. Where where your, your, your hand. You're picking up the slack. Is is far more of a detriment than it is for anything like Joe saying. There, you know Danny, you're saying with that tube. I know you know, you found all season applications for that. I know you're still throwing it even in this late. In. The season, what would you say with like, say, a bourbon tube which and I love the bourbon tube. I love Danny. I don't care. It's not competition, right? With with the burbot tube. How are you applying that from the early season all the way to late season? How do you change it up with that bait?
Speaker 2
Honestly, I'm really not, you know, fixing rocks.
Steven:
Thank you. Thank exactly. That's sad. Moving on.
Speaker 2
And but I mean the nice thing, the nice thing of. Out. That is, it has that removable weight. So right if I am gonna fish, you know some weeds or shallower rocks, well, then I just take the weight, the weight off the front, and then I can fish it, you know, four or five feet shallower. But as far as you know, the way I'm working the bait, the overall cadence, everything. I would say is pretty much the same as I would throw it in. July, as I would in October. You know, just, you know, trying to keep that bait in that you know, 8 to 12 foot zone when I'm bringing it in on a cast, you know it like I said earlier that 10 that 10 to 12 foot zone this fall seemed to be very a very pivotal depth and you know you know you went into saying and saying why and that makes sense now. But you know. As fat. I wanna work it as fast as I can work it. And keep it deep, you know? And like and. And that's another thing people get confused is when I say slow it down, they they they pull it, they pull it slower and then they they whine slower and it's like no, no no. When I say slow it down I still want you I still want you to RIP it as hard as you can RIP it and then just wind it in a little bit.
Jay:0
Yes.
Speaker 2
Floor. I still want a hard RIP.
Jay:0
Hello.
Speaker 2
And just, you know, wind that that line and a little bit slower, not like when I say slow down I. Don't want you. To like move the rod at a.
Steven:
Like like snails pace. OK guys, I guess and and I'm. And I love Danny to death. I've said a million times, he and I at the same. I'm Benoist to each other. We figured out the same problem, right with versatile weighting and all this stuff. Mines better obviously. But we figured that out and we we we sat there and we're talking about it and of course we give each other.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Exactly. No, no.
Steven:
Yeah, and and and that's mutual respect, but. We talk about it. It's like. How are you not figuring out what we're telling you, right, whether it be me with a cracking and a client, or him with a bourbon tube. And this is exactly the same thing. Like, no, slow it down. It's like, dude, it's like watching somebody like they pull it up. It's like this slow motion. Like they've slowed their rod pull up, but they're reeling down really fast. It's. You just wanna freaking scream, dude? No.
Speaker 2
I I love. I love when they I love when they start to.
Jay:1
I love the the best.
Speaker 2
Is when they do a Figure 8 and they do like 2 full circles and then they wind like 20 feet of linen.
Steven:
Yes, we, we snacked the **** out of him, boys and wins a win, you know.
Speaker 8
Dude, you say that I had that ****. I had that happen.
Speaker 2
Yeah, you were. You were. You worked down.
Speaker 4
There a little.
Speaker 8
This. You're like after three hours and that.
Jay:0
You just give up.
Jay:
You like.
Speaker 3
It looks.
Steven:
Good to me. Looking good. Just keep it going. Pray to God. A hand one to you. Uh, you know it's ridiculous. And I know I'm just blasting you guys right now, but trolling, right? Joe, do you do? You troll on like the woods at all. Or is that something you you like to do? Or is it something you don't do? What's what's the thought there?
Speaker 4
Well, I used to troll and once it got to be those fall temps, I really have done very little trolling since. Probably about 20. I think 2018 was the last year I spent any amount of time trolling. I just. You know, I I have a I have a boat now that is not. I have a a 24 foot center console with and it just doesn't really work great for the way we troll up here. It's like it's not maneuverable enough.
Steven:
Thanks for bragging. Thank thanks for bragging Mr. Big boat bragging on the show. Come take.
Speaker 4
I don't have a kicker motor on it. It's an ocean boat pretty much.
Steven:
That's all. That's ******, actually, so.
Jay:
Not going to need boat.
Steven:
A bigger room. We're not gonna folks. You bring your whole freaking family and your cousins on his boat. Apparently.
Speaker 4
Yeah, look at look at 5 people. That's fine.
Steven:
That's ******.
Speaker 4
No, but no, I don't. I don't have 5 people. That's crazy. But I will have 3. But anyways that I I don't troll much and so here's one of the biggest things like before I probably would have never told because I always loved jigging straight through. But before forward facing it was pretty hard to keep clientele engaged. Yeah. I mean like for the first part of it like having ever even heard of digging for monkeys. But then to get them like there's so many times I I have the utmost confidence in doing it. But then the guys that I'm with, I can tell they're checked out 15 minutes into it and they're like this kid just burning daylight.
Jay:0
Yes. Ohh of course dude. Yeah.
Speaker 4
Yeah, but then. Forward facing so sonar and now I can keep guys and even if we're not getting even if we haven't seen a muskie yet. Guys are engaged. They see what's going on. They see kind of like what? What we're doing a little bit better. It's not just like you're floating around in space like for some mythical creature or something like guys. And so really that's that when I when I started running, when I started running forward facing then.
Steven:
It's a video game, yeah.
Speaker 4
Was able to jig throughout the whole season.
Steven:
More it it's funny it that I'm you're you're spot on because like for me. You know, I used to kill guys. I'm. We're, we're all musky guys here, OK? Forget about it. The people listening. If you are, you are. You're not young. Every now and again I might kill 2 hours trolling whatever right I want to sit down. No one knows the difference, but now when you look at your forward facing going, I'm moving. 5-6 times as many fish off the bottom verse when I'm trolling with forward facing sooner, I'm seeing one or two suspend does so it's actually more productive. But like you're saying Joe is like talking somebody into jigging was like talking them into like waste. They feel like they're wasting their time until the strike game. Before we had four facing where they going. This is stupid. No one does this. I know exactly what you're saying because they're.
Speaker 4
Yeah.
Steven:
I'm not casting, I'm bored. You know how many times can we talk about whatever? And then, like, they're glazed over like a doughnut going. This sucks, and this guy's just making this ****.
Speaker 2
Up. But you look at you.
Speaker 4
Know and then you get lucky and like somebody would catch 1 right away and then all of a sudden they're all in, you know, and they're now. I'm digging all day.
Steven:
Right. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2
Awesome.
Steven:
Yeah, the demeanor changes quickly.
Speaker 4
But like for the guys that wouldn't get one right away, they're like they, I mean, they just didn't believe in it and. I'm like no. I even if I would do everything I could to convince him, I'm like no, trust me. Like this is going to be sick. Just hold on. Well, then all of a sudden you're an hour into it with all the bite. Well, now I mean. I I I fished. Spots for an hour all the time without getting a bite. But they can see their face. They can see. And the other thing about about it too is not just keeping guys engaged, but now you can fish that steep structure that they're using and and.
Jay:0
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 4
Like you know, where you couldn't see that steep stuff before because you know the just the 2D. Or whatever can't. Really look down that. But yeah, I mean like the forward facing really helped you know for me just because now guys will do it with me. You know, that's so.
Steven:
Oh no. Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. Or you could just do what Danny does in fake hooks. Ohh, missed him. Keep him again. Keep jigging. They call him Danny pants Ripper her back. He's squatted down to his ankles. I'm teasing.
Jay:
Just missed another one. There was one there, man.
Speaker 2
What? What? What? What's wrong with the? Guy follow now and again.
Steven:
Picking on Danny fish. Dude, I've done it though on the on the jigging thing where you're, like, please trust me. Please give me an hour of your time and I know what you're saying. Danny, are you trolling at all? Or like I know.
Speaker 4
Well, so.
Speaker 2
Yeah, there. I mean, there are times there's a couple applications like in the fall I'll troll mainly because it's too cold to cast and there are times honestly, that I'm casting that I probably should be trolling just to cover, you know, more water to find, you know, the one or one or two active fish. And I mean. You look through all the years of all the giant biggest fish ever caught all over North America. What? How have they been caught?
Steven:
Snagging. Ohh.
Speaker 2
Most of them are caught trolling. Most of them are caught trolling, you know.
Speaker
Yeah.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And it's, you know, I I feel it is at times an overlooked thing. I really do. And do I do enough of it? Probably not because I like the cast, but there are times that trolling can be very effective. It's especially, you know pre like postponed like this year.
Steven:
Now you're.
Speaker 2
I'm sure a guy could have did done very well postponing, you know, over the basins trolling. Unfortunately, there's guys that are going out and just you know. Running around with forward facing and and chasing around that way now which to each their own but trolling trolling can be a very very effective way. I don't do much of it in the summer, mainly in the fall. If it's too cold and you know your reels are your reels are freezing up and even when I do then. It's not, you know, Main Basin suspend or trolling. It's mainly contour trolling, right? So you're you're banging rocks and you're, you know, you're running a a pretty tight line, staying on an edge.
Steven:
But like you said earlier it it's the same thing as like.
Speaker 2
But yeah.
Steven:
And and you know, I've been doing this for yawns. Both of you guys have to. Where? Like you know, in my 20s, I trolling was for old people, you know, and and you go, OK, I'm going to figure this out. And you grow, grow your game. You know where I definitely went from casting to I'm going to implement trolling to I implemented jigging and I feel competent. In all three phases of what we have available to us where. I think sometimes as guides. And Joe already alluded to it, we're trying to entertain people. You know, you you if you lose if when you lose the.
Jay:0
Oh yeah.
Steven:
We've never. I've never said this on the show because typically it's just me and Jay and I love Jay. But you know. As a guide. You're you're putting its performance art as much as it is delivering a fish. And when you lose the audience, you're in deep ****.
Jay:0
Hey. Yeah.
Steven:
And.
Speaker 2
It's you can tell when it's time to change the game. You can sell the all their mental game. Yeah, you can tell when, like when some people are checked out and you know, are there times that I have trolled when I'd rather be casting 100%. But you know, you gotta do what you can do for the client. Not every client you have can stand up and cast.
Jay:0
Right, right.
Speaker 2
For 10/12 hours so so will I switch to trolling to benefit him? And you know, you know, catch him a fish 100%. You know that and like what you said is bang on, you know? Yeah, we're out there to catch fish, but we're out there. You know to appease somebody that's ultimately paying my bills, right? So I get it. Not everybody can do the same thing. So, you know, there are times where you know.
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Speaker 2
Running, I'd run, you know, live bait. You know, 22 sucker rods and just go along structure with two sucker rods. Cause the guys you know he's tired, can't cast anymore or something like that. And that's, you know, that's part of it. As a guide, knowing when to kind of. Do what you need to do to put a fish in the boat for a client versus you know it's just not about me catching.
Steven:
A fish? Ohh, absolutely not where it's like. And I I think I say that because like yesterday and and I I can say this because he's been cleaning my for. Eons, right. I have a client that has Parkinson's now, right? Every October we have caught plenty of big fish for years. And this year, it's like. I'm done casting. We need to troll. I'm doubt in on a casting light. That's it. I'm not dialed in on an open water where the suspenders are, but there's a trade off there where this is what we have to do as a guide to get through the day. Based upon the physicality or the demeanor of what we have, we we have to work with, which is. I think what I'm getting at is I think for an average guy client you need to be amenable to your guide at all times, right? If if if if I step on. If I step on Cooper's boat and he said we're going to jig for 12 hours, shut your mouth and do it.
Speaker 2
And.
Speaker 4
Yeah, don't bite the guide.
Steven:
Whether he's right or wrong, don't doubt the guy. And I'm not saying, you know, my favorite bumper sticker is ever it says guide, not God, right? We don't know exactly what's gonna happen, but but but is a muskie? God, guess what? We're not doing things we don't think will work. You're never.
Speaker 2
Well, and to be honest with you. Some of the some of the new patterns I've found and carried on through the summer have been on days where I've had clients that couldn't do what I normally do on a daily basis. So you're forced to go looking for new things.
Steven:
You made made you change it up, yes.
Speaker 2
And then all of a sudden, boom, there's a you find this shining star that nobody else is on to, and you can run that for a little while before everybody dials in on a new pattern that that nobody knows is out there right now.
Steven:
You guys say.
Jay:1
Something so it's not a bad thing.
Jay:0
- Yeah.
Steven:
I thought I thought it hurt her. I I thought I heard you chime in. I something I wanted to ask you and and it get off the the soap box of how tough it is. Being a muskie guy and we all we can all cry and **** in our Cheerios.
Speaker 4
Look right?
Steven:
Danny, you did something. I think it was last year with MATS. With the 3D Pike in the lying through trout, which was insane. Do you care to share that?
Speaker 2
I can. I can really blow some. People's minds.
Steven:
Nice or not?
Speaker 2
So I'm I'm hesitant I'm I'm hesitant but so last year.
Speaker 3
Or not. Yeah. I could, but I won't.
Speaker 2
Last year we were there was it was like end of August, beginning of September and the a lot of fish had kind of like pulled off structure and were out in like deep mud like 25 to 32 foot mud where you couldn't really. Get any sort of crankbait troll down right in their face, and you couldn't effectively cast them because you you just you couldn't see them till they peeled out of the mud. And I had. I had located an area that was, you know, probably 6070 acres. Just flat mud where there was quite a few fish, you know hanging out. And we took those savage gear lined through trouts lying through Pikes.
Speaker 3
And we I.
Speaker 2
Use 8 oz snap weights. So I run the this is a soft plastic, you know real life like. That they use overseas for, for Pike, they do this a lot. I'd run the beta out 50 feet, click on my snap weight and I would get it down to about 2018 to 22 feet and I would troll it. But the the difference is with that is I was trolling at at 1.5 to one. .8 miles an hour. Right. That's completely different than, you know, your average trolling where you, what are you doing three 2.8 to 5?
Speaker 7
Between.
Speaker 2
Yeah, you know what I mean? So what you were doing was as this wasn't like a reactionary bite, which you typically get trolling going that fast is it was a speeding bite like cause these these baits are so lifelike and so real that these fish thought they were the real deal. That's why you go so slow. And I mean in like 4 days we had eight. I think we caught like 9 fish and there wasn't hardly another fish caught in camp and it was it was totally super eye opening that. That you know to do that, going that slow and having these fish just like completely come out of nowhere, you know, I was taking the scope actually. And I would point it back to set my base at the right depth and you could watch these fish come peeling out of the mud and they some of these fish which. You know, muskies like to follow stuff. Some of these fish would follow these baits for hundreds of yards and then all of a sudden they would eat it. Whereas trolling they might come up on the bait. Watch it, you know, follow it for 3040 feet and then sink away. These fish were fooled by these.
Steven:
Babies. Yeah, at the at the speeds which is. It's funny which when you say that and the reason I ask you to say that which was like Cooper was talking about late season jigging, right? And he's talking about not a big proximity from the fish or a big proximity from the bottom. Which is to me, you have got both of you have solved the same late season Canadian musky problem by proximity structure.
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Steven:
Close proximity at slow speeds, slow trolling and jigging both accomplish the same thing and increase visual profile with slow advancement to fish that are bottom tight. Where I think as anglers, what do we all want to do? We all want to throw a freaking pose, giant jackpot or old wiggle and work the **** out of it. We see the tail. Finn come out and Wham, bam. Thank you, ma'am. Where? When you gotta put put a fish in the boat. Sometimes it takes tight coverage to structural elements to get them to bite. Would you agree?
Speaker 2
Especially when they're not real fired up. Yeah, but those fish are.
Steven:
Catchable. They're catchable. They're sitting there and like I love what Coop said, where it's like. They're they're he's head down behind. You know, I'm not trying to put words in your, not trying to put words in your mouth, but correct me wrong. You're in a little bit of current. He's behind one rock. You jig ever. He pops out and he smacks it. Or on Eagle they're tight to the muck. And here comes the savage gear. 9D Pike. Or whatever it is, it's 3D9D is it? Have you guys figured out other dimensions for Pike? Yeah, Dan.
Speaker 2
Well, I would really. I would really like to have like a southern like can you develop like a southern Pike for me to troll up here? They probably really like it.
Steven:
Is there?
Speaker 3
Yeah, it's.
Steven:
It's it's missing most of it's missing most of its teeth and it's got a marble red hanging out of its mouth. It's like, Oh yeah, I'm a southern ****. It's got a #3 on the side, like Dale Earnhardt, and it's in its spots. But but yes, that would be the 4D Pike.
Speaker
So.
Steven:
That, you know, hearing both you guys, it's the same thing. Structure, fishing, adjacent to cover, appropriate stability, it it all clicks. We've been rambling forever. I'm sure you both want to get off here, but. You know, on at least on this show, if guys you listen to, we got the Muskie 360 Canada podcast. Coop and and and Danny, you're doing it. I think they're gonna go. What are you guys gonna do? Like a monthly or, like, kind of when you feel like it over the winter? What's? What's kind of the appropriate Bob there? Danny.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Well, I we haven't really discussed it yet, but I would assume we probably both don't have a whole lot going on till the ice really forms. And we can get out on top of it. So with the sporadic fishing, we're going to be doing until then, I would say probably we'll probably definitely get together here before the end of the month and do something and. And then probably, you know, do a monthly deal is kind of. What I was thinking.
Steven:
Yeah, that'd be perfect. You got you. You listen, you can dial in. You can TuneIn to hear seasonal depression and it's best and and and see what's going on. The Canadian must be muskie 360. Canada, February. Danny, take the gun out of your mouth. No.
Jay:
It's coming.
Steven:
Sorry, but nonetheless, they're gonna keep keep you doubt in. Obviously you guys are gonna have a lot of thoughts and comprising what you saw this year and all your knowledge. So they're going to keep something going over the winter here. Just keep me satiated and then come back with that. I'm sure before opener. Danny's fishing Willie before that and obviously Coop. But I think the biggest thing is this. In in it's rare it's not something you're going to get to do next year. I know it. It never happens. It doesn't happen two years or two years in a row. December 15th. The cut off. If somebody want to go out with you or coop right now and and target hogzilla how they get ahold of you, coop.
Speaker 4
Give me a shout on my phone. It's 218-280-3734 and you might have to leave a message. I got poor service up here, but I'll get back at the end of the day. Otherwise you can just shoot me an e-mail, which is Joe Cooper 8-9 at Gmail and. And let's set it up and get out there. I'm on them right now. And and they'll be on them until.
Steven:
Yeah, sneak out, dude, it's a RIP.
Speaker 4
It freezes so.
Steven:
It's a rare opportunity, Danny. What about you, bud?
Speaker 2
Well, Joe, did you? You gotta give out your Grinder account number too.
Steven:
For other, for everybody, I'm flooded.
Speaker 4
I thought only you wanted that.
Steven:
I'm I know. I'm. I'm I'm. Oh, you've heard the alert. I'm flooding you right now, Sir. I don't. I don't want it, Danny. He's mine. Don't give him. Don't give him up to anybody else. How do you get ahold of you? Herbs.
Speaker 4
I I enjoy it.
Speaker 2
Uh, get a hold of me, 807-216-8866. Give me a call. Shoot me a message. Either that or on social, on Instagram or Facebook. Either one. Get a hold of me there and we can. The next two weeks, I'd say we are 100% a go with the weather looking out. I mean, after that it might kind of be a a touch and go deal. Just uh. To see you know what's gonna come with the next long range forecast here, but looking out for the next two weeks, it looks pretty looks pretty solid.
Speaker 3
It.
Jay:
Awesome.
Steven:
It's a rare opportunity and I gotta think both of you can. Coop, thank you for talking to me. And and again I, you know, trust Danny. Danny's of genuine friend of mine and and and. And something else says this. And this is just for muskie fishing in general. Me and Danny are competitors and we could be friends and I think that means a lot. And I think a lot more people. We need to do that in this sport, you know. Here you have Coop and Danny. They're both guides in Canada. They're competitors and they could be friends. And they're both great people.
Jay:1
MHM.
Steven:
Fish with good people, that's what matters in this sport, and I promise you, in the future you're going to be able to listen to the Muskie, 360 Canada, Muskie report and get really good information from two really good guys. You know I I put my my whole faith behind and if you go with either they're going to treat you great on the water. They're going to treat you. With respect and they're going to give a hell. And that's what I like about Buffy, because I know I fish with Danny, and Danny swears up and down on Coop is these guys aren't gonna show up. They're not. They're not gonna show up and phoned it in. They're not gonna show up and say cast over there where they're texting people. These guys are the real deal, and that's what we're trying to build at Muskie 360. You know, Danny might be the link wink but but but here we are. Jay, there's not much money.
Jay:
Hey Sharon, share. Share information and good things.
Steven:
Will happen. You know. You know, whatever. Whatever. Fricking Danny Herbeck sucks. We all know it. Alright, thank you guys. I love you Danny.
Speaker 2
2nd place, second place. Yeah. Second place, second place.
Steven:
Coop, thank you, buddy. I appreciate.
Jay:0
Hard please.
Speaker 4
Don't get killed.
Steven:
Let me save it. Jaybird. Wow. I'm going to tell you. Right now, yeah. This is what we've done in the podcast, meaning that we built this city. We built this city on rock'n'roll right in the in the words of Jefferson Starship, and you find 2 like minds that are willing to do it. They're going to share everything they have from, like Cooper.
Jay:
They're.
Steven:
Dude, Cooper's telling you this is my number one bait. Right. Danny's telling. This is what I'm doing. This is. It's the hokey pokey of muskie fishing. This is what it's all about.
Jay:
With extreme accuracy and depth, I mean there's so much detail that they gave out. I mean, pay attention to what they're saying. If you ever fish in that region.
Speaker 8
Yeah.
Jay:
You're gonna do good. You know what I mean and cause those guys are.
Steven:
Next. Always on it and and they're trust where they they're great guides and here. It's like. If they say you can take it to the bank, right, right. Ever. Quite. I had a client client tell me. He said if Steven Paul tells tells you it's Christmas. Me. But you better buy a tree, right?
Jay:
Steven:
I I think about that with Danny and Joe. If either if if Danny Herbeck tells me. Hey, buddy, it's Christmas. Dude, it's July now. I'm gonna put up a tree. Cause Christmas is is showing up. You know.
Speaker
MHM.
Steven:
And these guys know what they're doing and if I'm gearing up for my Canada trip, that's who I'm listening to.
Jay:0
Yeah, yeah.
Steven:
And so next year, you know, they're going to keep doing it. They're going to do their episode probably once a month as we go here. Just keep up with it and we get into the the ramp up on this thing. You know, Krieger has been doing the North Woods report. We'll we'll we'll have a Northwoods report next year, but the Canada report is like the the crown jewel. And these guys know what they're doing, Jay. Are are you all geared? Are you?
Jay:1
Good, great.
Steven:
All geared up for the. The quarter quell here at the end of the month, I think in a couple of.
Jay:
Ohh the what?
Steven:
Now the Quell the Conger games. They're like it's the semi quarter quell or whatever I don't know. Ah, this week and. All I know is this. We're we're about to vote for who we're going to execute in the North Woods, right?
Jay:
Well, it'll be nice when it's over.
Steven:
It'll be nice when.
Jay:
Put it that. I'm sick of turning the TV on and soon.
Steven:
So I give up, folks. Anyway. Jay. Burt. Say Evita Zane.
Jay:
Thank you all.
Jay:0
Good and dog.
Jay:2
I know you wanna fish this Bay, but my heart set on trolling and your casting plan is. And I heard that there's a 12 foot brake. Big old girls will all hang out. You catch 1 every day. I'm having musket dreams. While vision, Tennessee. My phone on musky shop I've seen for it's calling me. Won't cast a grammar now should try to catch a ski. I'm better set the track or else it's gonna scream. What have you done? Although we withdraw what you rig up, and now I was prepared, but now I'm stuck here with casting. I'm gonna keep on testing all the things.