Musky 360 Podcast Episode 230: Whole Lotta Musky Thoughts and Structure Rants
Podcast Transcript
All right folks welcome to the Musky 360 Podcast
My goodness. It's Sunday, it's Sunday
Yes sir
I have been out on the water with The Farkus of Marks, which is Marcus
Oh no him
Hey, he's a great dude. He comes up to the store. We've been fishin’ our butts off and catchin' fish. It's a weird deal. I'll tell you what, down south it is a mixed-up bag of mixed-up replay. Also, hot and cold mixed just everything like frontal systems. You got pre-spawn. You got post-spawn. You got spawnin'. You got fish that don't know what year it is. So, it's a grab bag of funsies. Just dip your toes, and wade out in the water Jay. Wade is out a little bit deeper. I thought for sure going to the Netherlands, and hanging out with Tim, would satiate that problem; it would be a misnomer this year. I would avoid it. Nope, smack dab right there. Stuck in the middle with you.
Stealers Wheel Jay
Mm-hmm
Now one of my favorite movie scenes is Tarantino, Stealer’s Wheel, you know what I'm talkin’ about it.
Reservoir Dogs
Oh beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. Speaking of beautiful video editing cinematography if you will, musky, Musky photography, man of photography and do it really. Jay, you just sent me you just sent me the beautiful edit you did on the first leg of the pike trip. What are you thinkin’ there bud?
Yeah. The big Netherlands pike you talkin’?
Yeah, what do you think?
Cool little video. Got some cool content. Got some big monster pike and some tactics and some new things to do with the Kraken and you kinda let the cat out of the bag on a couple of those new tail options that are gonna change things for the better
Well, the next video I think we played with, I just had podcast people. There are only four people listening to Jay. Me, you, my mother, and my wife. That's only people who listen. I just got this for this many years hoping we would gain traction, Jay. One of these days Jay we will gain traction
We're gonna take off one of these days Me and you
To the moon baby
To the moon, just keep doing it.
I don't know what that means. I'm thinking of only four hundred more episodes. And people really pick up on this. It's me and you. Maybe we got it wrong, let's try it again from the top
Hi, I'm Steve.
And I'm Jay.
And welcome to the Musky Shop. We've got new baits, they're exciting baits, they're good baits. Let us provide you with your baits. Let us beat your bait people. Jay, how's your model of trains?
Model trains!
You know, I'm here, I'm selling baits. Whatever.
So, you know, we're gonna hit a big someday, bud. Just keep dreaming. So, last week we almost had five listeners. Almost, I talked, I gave this bum a hamburger and he almost listened.
Well, I'm glad you're crunching the stats there
I'm cutting this, it means a lot to me. Not even talking about boys, I'm so neck-deep in these Pepsis, that I can't see too many Pepsis to talk to see. But, yeah, me and Jay are gonna hit off one of these days we'll get the right recipe here to get people to listen. Say hi to my mom, Jay.
Oh, our number one and only listener.
We'll see, no, my dad listens, say hi to my dad.
You're a dad.
Hi dad.
Hey Dad, what's up, Jay, he said you were a huge disappointment. Anyway, there's new stuff at the Musky Shop this week.
Mepps is running a special. It's not because they want to get rid of them, but because they can do special things because they're Mepps.
Because they can't buy them fast enough. Listen, oh my gosh, we're selling a ton of them.
Tell the people to buy and maybe you'll regain your dad's love, Jay.
Well, the entire month of April, all Mepps Musky Killers, are you kidding me? Musky Killers Baitfish Series, Musky Killers, and the Tandem Musky Killers, 15% off. So, they're on the top of the website, the new section. Moving like crazy, if a color is sold out, hold on a couple of days, we're getting more in.
It's like Eddie Money, baby, hold on to me
Mmm, surely
Musky hold on to me. Whatever will be, will be. The trolling is harsh to see
What's the horrible song here with the sax solo in it?
That I did?
You play sax, Jay plays sax, whatever. Next week Jay's gonna do the intro where it's just me and him doing Careless Whisper
Mmm, you know who played sax on that song?
Who?
No, I don't know
I'm just asking.
I think George Michael did it himself.
God, no
He blew something. I don't know if it was a saxophone
Anyway, so we've got the Mepps sales again
Yeah, we've got the Mepps sale
Mmm-hmm
Whatever, I read the news
I read the news today
Oh boy
Hey, you know what else came in? You know what's starting to come in is the RJ 7/8 Bucktail. The first eight colors in, those are gonna be hard to get this year.
You just have one can’t make them fast enough so
Is that the weight-forward model?
No, no, just the straight.
Straight bucktail with one seven and one number eight Colorado Blade. And hair body.
Beavers are back boys, it's beaver season. Sink your teeth into them, boys. Yep, wait, you're whistle
Yep, we got scores. Those are quickly getting demolished. But we've still got a decent supply left of Lake X
Are they? Are people demolishing the beavers?
They are. Yeah, yep, I'm not gonna say it. And eventually, we're gonna get some more Steve's tailgater spinnerbaits in too. I think we're gonna get refilled on those, they're almost sold out again
We've got the... There are a couple of colors that are out. So, you got those. You know, I mean goodness, it's gracious. Lake X, it's one of these baits where we get them when we get them at the Musky Shop. We try good, and we try hard, right?
Mm-hmm
But if you need one, or if you suspect you're gonna need one later in the summer getter now.
It's kind of the advice that I've taken
So, you never know, again it is what it is, making baits as hard. Making baits as hard to do. So that's it, Jay.
What's your tip on mini beavers?
On the mini beaver, get a weight kit by a Phantom weight or a Suick weight kit. And those will screw in there because you need to add weight to that bait. And they have inserts for weights. Much needed, get that thing run proudly
There you go, Jay
Otherwise, it's extremely buoyant and it just stays very high in the water column without added weight.
And the XL beaver, the same thing?
Yup, or 14-inch beaver, 5.9. Got some of the XL, not the XL, what do they call it? The lake addition, you start to make some of those again, got some of them in the standards
Like, what's this?
So, lake addition has, it's pre-weighted and there's no insert for it. So, it's gonna run pretty sweet 12 inches, 5 inches.
That's a sweet beaver.
Yup.
That's the one you want
Yes sir. Yes sir.
Anyway, get squared up on that. No, Jay was talking about the big pike video coming up, we're super stoked about that. Something else is kind of goofy, just a new thing here. Okay. Jim-Baila himself is probably a mistake because we're idiots. That said, why don't we put the podcast on the website for the Musky Shop? So, if, let's say you're having problems, you can't get the app or you don't have it on Apple or whatever it is. The podcast is now on MuskyShop.com. So, you can check that out and every episode will have a transcript unfortunately Jay
Okay
So, everything you've said has been written down
In which language? It's like having a stenographer
Okay
So, when we argue, now I have the written text that shows you wrong. Think about that
Okay
Yeah, okay
Now you gotta read it back and go listen, this is what you said to me and this is what hurt my feelings.
This is what hurt my feelings. Well, there's more coming with that. You know.
I don't know, just you know.
More of that came from it. Stay seated because the night is young Steve
Listen, Jay, you only think about yourself really
They call me automatic whiplash. I don't know why, but you know. Hey, Fred called a little bit ago too. He said Savage Gears are flying out of here. And we don't even have the new ones in yet. He just called me for like an update while he was leaving work tonight
Go call him
He's on his way to say his way to Antigo tomorrow. So, to see this. Well, I don't know, but he said hey if I need to pick up the Suick order. Let me know. So, I'm gonna contact Mike Suick in the morning. See if it's ready to be picked up. And then they don't have to ship it.
Imagine if Fred's just in the parking lot tonight
He's been known to hang out there sometimes
So then loiter.
Then loiter.
Yeah, what Savage Gears flying out. He wasn't sure he couldn't put it into words.
That's hella info dude.
Just telling it like it is. Which model man?
He said, “I think the four plays have been going by the four plays and the perch baits.” And I said, okay, well it's good to know. More of those on order coming in this week
Well, that's the hot tip for the Antigo playboy.
Mm-hmm, there you go.
Anyway, goodness gracious. I'll tell you what I got a text from the from a Smity this week
Did you?
Yeah, they were down. They trespassed, they trespassed across my land
Well, they are on vacation too.
Or what's going on?
They went down South, right?
Oh, I didn't know that.
And didn't know what a biscuit was. That's it. They had no clue. They just showed up. Went bass fishing. I have proof on my phone The Smity’s went bass fishing.
Alright.
Slightly embarrassing. But nonetheless. A bunch of people wrote in, they're going what's up with the Smity diamond file. Where we were kind of…Maybe it was me, but it was you, I'll blame you. Where we were riffing on it. And they go what's the difference between the two files? Because the Smity file is super popular, right?
Yeah, they're a flat file.
You go to the Musky Shop, there's a busket, Jay, a busket of them by the register. Not a bucket, a busket. But the diamond file has this groove in the center. So, if you're fishing single hook bait. That is a super important tool to have. Like your spinnerbaits, like your meat grinders. Your tailgaters, your top Not topers, slop…
Slop masters.
Whatever, man. Radaradera. Rad dogs, sad dogs, mad dogs, whatever they are
Right.
Rad bad sad mad. That's going to be a great film for that. And it's a different like we talked about. We covered it, a lot of people were like. What do you mean?
Yeah, so you're saying it's not blinged out, it has the performance feature to it
No, people are going like, why? Yes, Jake, please make me a blinged-out file. You just said that I demand a Smity file with a blinged-out handle now.
How Cool!
It's just a typical Smity file But it has jewels in it, like a Kardashian. It's not that it's a diamond edition. It is a diamond Like basically diamond dust Dusty roads That are better for sharpening stainless steel So yes, one file is great But if you're fishing like Your stainless-steel hooks Or what're the hooks, Jake, they're like And I'm going to the terminology I'm going to screw it up They look galvanized, some of these saltwater hooks They're like the gray
I think they call them in But I don't know what they're composed of.
Maybe it's a great thing Maybe it's cheap stainless steel Or something, but you don't talk about That is hardened steel The diamond, the Smity diamond file Is really good on those Chaos hooks we talked about I don't know if we got there last week As kind of run them on my mouth In a shocking twist You look at the Medusa's They're the current production Where they have these really thick Hook shanks The hooks built out.
Right, they think they caught a 50-pounder And they caught the bottom of the lake.
Right, mwahook! So manufacturers respond And they get heavier hooks And it's just like a dichotomy of response and retaliation And you end up with the most ridiculous hooks ever That are hard to sharpen That Smity diamond file is excellent Because it contours down the back of the hook So the two, if you will are two Metal bars that have diamond shavings Or diamond dust on them Right, and you draw them down Just like your normal hook file But it's way, way easier to get a great point on super Hard material Say you're stainless steel hooks Your tin hooks as Jay said. Galvanized hooks or whatever you want to look at What are you going to call them That is the money sharpener That’s clarification, Sakes there You know? And then Jay's proud to announce our new sponsor this week
We have a new sponsor, Steve
This Smity legal fund
Oh, that's right
Right, you can donate today To the Smity legal fund
Jay, what are they being indicted?
Not yet
It's not an indictment in Minocqua
They say it was
Seizure?
No, when the guy was doing the news thing He’s like OH, what do you say?
Oh, God
When he's doing The guy was like, Arrangement. They've been arranged We watched the
Minocqua news when he was supposed to be an arrangement
Arrangement
Yeah, that was about the guy who found the Minard’s gift card in the dumpster I’m dusting up on that I’ve been watching
And now there isn't man, when there is I'm going to let you know
Can you google that real quick?
I'm going to look really quick I’ve tried, but nothing comes up
Well, has he been arranged yet?
Okay, was it Minocqua or was it Eagle River? Do you remember what town it was in?
I don't know, I've had multiple Multiple people ask me who did that voice Like, oh, that's funny Who did that? That was the news That’s who did that: The news Not me, not Jay, It was so dumb it was a podcast intro, so he's been arranged. Anyway, So something I want to touch on. It's just par for the course This time of year I'm saying it's up and down It's crazy, it's this, it's that I’ve gotten text, I've gotten emails There’s a certain cut-off period for the Spawn, which is not temperature driven It is photoperiod driven Right?
Yeah, so I'm dealing with
Kooky Temps, right? You know, it's snowed in the Northwoods. Jay thought it was ice over And here we were clear and free And guess what? Snow and ice, right? I was wearing a float suit Two days ago and now I'm finally wearing jeans It is a crazy temperature grade The answer is Body of water section to section So everybody’s going are they spawning or not? Guess what Jay, what's the answer? Body of water section to section It is going to be a mixed bag A cornucopia of suffering For a hot minute Right? So, you're on a big body of water The fish that are on the north end It’s going to be different everywhere You go Definitely in the far south We’ve missed kind of the window Some are, some aren’t Some haven't, some will And I'm a crazy diligent record keeper Where I've looked at my numbers and I go Ooh, this is reminiscent of a couple years Where you're catching fish in late May that have eggs on them Because they don't know what's happening Right? Jay, what do you see in weather-wise? What’s happening up there?
It's looking good. Looking good We’ve had 50s the last couple of days and high wind today So I'm assuming when I drive to work That the lakes are going to be completely ice-free If not really close
Or what does that mean?
What does that mean? Well, hopefully, it holds for a week I haven't seen the longer-range forecast But there's no really bad cold weather in the near future So this might be yet They might open up this week If that's the case, you know That’s couple weeks earlier than normal Looking for a good season
The last few years have been kooky But everywhere else mixed bag Whether it be Pennsylvania or New York I’ve heard it all this week People are going, what do I do Virginia? Everywhere in between You’ve got to take it section by section So areas that are getting the most sun That is the warmest Jay, guess what's happening They’re spawning Sections of the lake that don't get as much saturation From sunlight Maybe it crust over a hill And it goes You see what I'm saying? The duration of the photoperiod Is actually slightly different Now the overall arching part of the day is different But you're seeing muskies paired you’re seeing muskies that are predating Everything in between So you've got to kind of address that And look at your situation Now what that's going to really boil down to We’re seeing fish and be where our baitfish stage, Right? That's going to be the main driver there Shifting gears quickly Jay Next week and I will be in Toronto That’s Canada
The Odyssey
I'll be at Musky Odyssey In Toronto
It's a big show
It's the biggest on planet Earf. Do you know that?
Sounds like fun Very cool
That's how we say it down here, Earf. It's annoying That’s the biggest show in the world Planet Earth So Musky Odyssey. I will be there next weekend I was texting Mike from Waterwolf Gonna see him. Gonna see a bunch of people up there Those are podcast fans gonna have some books with me going across the border there. Gonna go up there and visit with everybody If you're in the Toronto area Jay And you want to take me out for Pepsi’s Call me
Jesus no
If you want to go to that show Just look at Musky Odyssey It’s coming up very excited about that I’m going to do a big seminar We’re going to cover Musky structure fishing There you go Last week I alluded to it We’re going to talk about the details Of structure fishing Which I'm going to in a minute Going to here in a second But I was going to let Jay Talk a little bit more About some of the shorts And the Rattle Hawg What you got going on here, buddy
Oh, the Rattle Hawg?
I need to take a drink I need you to carry the show for like60 seconds
I'll try Well, I was looking through my videos From this last season I’m like, you know what, that Rattle Hawg Really needs to be on there Because actually when Steve saw that In the water, he was thoroughly impressed And I remember Jim Stewart throwing it When we were on the Eagle River Chain And we had four guys in the boat Very, very strange Hard cold front conditions And needless to say Fish were shallow and in the slop So a loud, noisy surface bait You know, is the ticket And bright colored stuff But regardless, this Rattle Hawg Is made by Hawg Seekers tackle It’s a wood bait It’s kind of If you had to compare it to one bait Would be like a Hawg Wobbler Although this bait is straight And it's got a flap tail It’s very, very easy to work You can put the rod tip up and get a Pretty good temple cabstand it's just got a great wiggle to it And it figures eight It figure eight's great So you can drive the bait downward And in your figure eight at the boatside and subsurface it works just as well
So, I just typed in hog seekers H-O-G seekers.com And went to your home address What’s up with that?
That's Fred's
Vow hog Oh, H-A-W-G That's Fred's H-A-W-G
Sure Okay, not hog H-O-G
You spelled wrong You spelled it wrong
Come on, wake up Hawg Seekers Not hog seeker
Anyway, so Would you consider yourself To be a hog master J?
Sure!
Fantastic. Anyway, let's talk Structure details, so I alluded to it last week. I'm gonna riff on this I’ve pontificated, I've thought about it I’m gonna kick my feet up here in the bat cave, here they come I’ve wet socks and cheap shoes Wearing my Walmart Slip-ons, cause it's wet outside And launching the boat Got a gut full of Mexican food Structure fishing, if you haven't figured that out Is kind of the key to everything That I was doing in the Netherlands Structure fishing, channels, offshore Brakes, blah blah blah bayou watch this video, Jay, there's not short line inside, is there?
No, for miles, miles, plus
We're just out there The abyss, if you will
Right, sure.
Basically, shipping lanes, big water
It's as big as they get. Man, this channel goes Straight into the North Atlantic Ocean
That's big. So, What matters to fish Is structure. So, Cover the very basics. So, Cover and structure Are exclusive elements Weeds, timber, and rocks are kind of weird things. But weed timber, those are not permanent, Right? They're not as important as Structure, so good structure And the hierarchy are far more important than Cover. Cover being timber, weeds, whatever you got. The conjunction of the two Is of utmost importance But does not trump the importance Of structure So, what I was thinking last week And kind of Mauling on Is for you guys that have been Listing forever, or you’ve Listened to structure master class one The master class two You’ve read Next Level Musky Fishing, you kind of got Your feel, you understand The basics of it, right? What are we looking at that really matters Now Jay, how many times have you heard the Phraseology of the terminology Spot-on-spot
Yep, right
Important musky fishing And that's one of these things like I figured that's for spot-on-spot It’s not that somebody shows you that They wax eloquent about it, it's a ramp, right? We have to spot-on-spot Okay, what matters there? I know, all week long I’ve been catching fish, I've been Doing this, doing that, blah blah And really paying more attention to that Where And looking at my maps And allowing me a moment of latitude Which is I’m trying to look at what I've done for decades And where I'm catching fish And what is the commonality, right Jay? Now, we might now have a point With a rock in this and that And the other where like You know, we one plus one plus one And the other is the commonality And the other is the commonality And the other where like, you know, we one plus one plus one equals three And its musky money, right? The commonality of structure across everything I've fished Between Tennessee and Canada is the entire habitat range And I've done Washington And I've done New York So not a lot, I've not Had a boat on The places that have been dynamically Far more important than anything else Have been the beginnings and ends of things, Jay
Okay…
what does that mean? The start of or the finish of And I really looked at my maps I looked at the maps this week where I went, Alright, where's the waypoint? And you go waypoint Five hundred ninety-six Okay, and I looked back at my records And I put that in my fish finder You know, six years ago For a catch and That was on the very end of a point And that was with rubber Or I look at the beginning of a hump Or the backside of a hump Or the front side of a hole in a river Or the backside of a hole in a river What I'm starting to see emerge Is the beginning point and the terminating point of structure Tends to be the most dominant Right? So, if we find say a littoral zone that's facing an open basin And it rises up slightly The outside edges tend to be more productive Than the inside edges Until we get to the downstream So let's say Like a normal human being A fish out of the port side on the boat, Jay
Right?
And we're going through a bay And we come up to the top of a Littoral zone I’m expecting to see a fish there And we might go through this section Say it's a hundred yards long And we get to the downside Right where it drops back off That’s where I'm expecting fish And we're going through a lot of structural anomalies Across the board for me Have been the most productive Where I think innately I gravitate towards those Without knowing it Right? Where instead of Barging into a flat Or barging into a structural thing I work my way into it Because I assume The front side and the back side Or...And not front or back, don't get me wrong What I'm saying is Where my first cast Hits change and where my last cast Goes back whatever it is...Okay, let's conceptualize this If you will, right?
Mm-hmm
We're all looking at the port side Of the left side of your boat Okay? We're going down a shoreline And the water is 15 feet deep Okay But in the middle of this pass It rises to 10 feet Like a Lopped pyramid So there's a rise from15 to 10And then it's even it drops off from 10 to 15Right, Jay?
Okay, yup.
Up, flat, down I expect to find fish Between the point where it goes from 15 to 10More so than I do To find fish on the flat 10In the middle So the transitional areas Are far more important based on my records Than the central sections of changes
Gotcha, yeah, it does Absolutely
I'm thinking about where neighbor Steve keeps his boat Think about that We’ve done that a million times We’ve made that pass and done it On the north side of the like the exact same scenario Outside edge Central, we might get one outside edge So from left to right If we're unimportant You know exactly the way I'm talking about Not where neighbor Steve keeps his boat But the other structure anomaly And we bet up there, right?
Yeah.
We smack him on the outside edge We might pick one out In the center and we smack him on the other downside Transition zone Maybe one or two in the middle Transition zone That’s where we catch our fish I’m finding that From looking at As many waypoints that could stand to funnel through and catches The majority of my structural catches Are on transitions And the sections where change is taking place Far more than the structural element itself Kind of God smacked over Right Leading into a point not the top of the point Leading into edge not The plateau of an edge or a rise So, paying special Consideration to me becomes highly important to Transitional zones And the sections most people overlook, Jay They motor up to the flat, right? You motor up right to the weeds and come up to the top That’s what most people do well, this is a flat and the weeds start here Well, if we're coming out of depth Guess what? And we always are Unless it's just like just a shallow nothing There’s a transition Whether it be from left to right or whatever However you're approaching it Right from the open basin Forward or whatever There is a transition of depth To shallow The transition Seems far more important than the plateau Does the plateau make sense For what I'm conceptualizing here
It does.
So, we've all found ourselves Where, yeah, muskies are in the Whatever, you know, they're in the They’re in the muck or whatever. Jay, you put a picture up of Early-season muskies, right? And I remember that fish very well And we're throwing small blades Right?
Yep.
That is on the outside edge of a creek channel. Correct me if I’m wrong. In a tiny bay
Yep. Yeah, you're right.
Dead right. There is A cast to the left and a cast to the right That could be shallow flat That fish and the fish I've caught And that come off the edge Of that channel. They don't come on the Deep part. They don't come on the Shallow part Somewhere in between the Transitional channel And I'm talking a matter of
Jay, how deep is that water? Five feet
Yeah, It's not deep. The deep edge leading in The creek channel leading in is like Nine and then that thing, Yeah, and you can get up to two, but Yeah, yep. Everything's four feet Four feet. Right.
And you go, Huh, here's this weedy bay, Yeah. And I thought about This week, I was going like, what Matters, and when you start thinking About fish, you go holy crap Now You’re fishing in particular Right, You go, huh, did that matter? Yeah, I've done it like 10 times Back then. Dr. Bob and I've Been There, I've been there with MG, I’ve Been with Different people and that exact saying cove, right? All of them come somewhere In that vicinity. I’ve cut a dink off the edge or Whatever, but There’s merit to that Where am I going to focus my energy When it matters is what I'm getting It, right? We can comb and we can You know; we can Cover as much water as possible But when the rubber meets the road Where am I going to pay attention? Let’s say that that place, right Jay? We go and we have a pizza And you bet me A thousand bucks and you go You got 10 casts To catch a musky 10 casts for 10,000 bucks, right? Every one of them's going down The side of that channel Every one of them Verse Throwing into the shallows. Now it's not shallow versus Deep. It is a structure Anomaly in a shallow zone. That is the zone of change. Correct me if I'm wrong. Explain that Scenario Jay. I’m not saying articulate it the way I articulate it. Explain That bay without spot burning. Explain what we're seeing. Explain What's happening there multiple times.
Yeah, it's a 50-acre Bay. It's being fed by a creek. There’s a merchant and some submerged vegetation. There's a creek Channel leading into it. With a neck down the area then it Widens out into this bay and Follows the creek channel and The weeds kind of lay off Of the structural anomaly you’re Talking about. The needs grow to About four feet. So that four to five Feet. Boom. That’s where all the mature fish are. And we're all about the fish Or. And they're in there Quite often and they're in there Using that day because There’s ample food source I Imagine. They're not being Overly harassed and They’re using that in the Bright Sun.
Well, the same thing Last time we went to Minnesota. so we fished. It comes up. It Flattens out. We go across And we go across. And we go Beginning and in. Think about it. In your head for a second.
Just did. Yeah. Mm hmm.
Spots of fish all the time Where they're flats. They’re break off. It is. Yes. We will pick up Fish in the mid-summer the peak of summer and the dead Middle of things. The same lake as that that shallow bay we just Discussed. Right, Jay.
Uh-huh.
When we begin that Pass on the north end. And there's a point in the middle That subdivides it. Right. So, think about that. We go To the north end of that thing. There’s a weed bed that goes left to Right. Cause always run. Always Run port. So just for Argument's sake. So, we're in the North end of that lake. We will tag a fish at the beginning of that pass. Jim got And then we might hit one on the Point. Cause there's a point that subdivided the weeds. And then We get to the other end and we Tag fish. The beginning. And end of structure and cover tends to be dominant. Now for years, I've heard Guys talk about mapping weed Beds. Right. That used to be an Old thing. I used to hear all the Time. Guys would literally spend The time. And then we would go to the Eagle Lake when I was a kid Finding the edges of weeds so They could target them with Eagle tails. Yeah. Right. Well, they would pick up fish on the outside edge of Things. But what I'm seeing is What’s dominant is the Marriage between the cover structure And edges. Right. And at a certain point That allows a musky to ambush In or ambush out.
Right.
So, if we have a change in Depth. In combination. So, we have a topography Change being a change in depth. In conjunction with cover. In conjunction with warm water. What are we missing? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I'm looking at My catch records. I've never really Asked for a change in depth. I’m interested this way in Pontificating and real-time to The best of my ability. Where leading into a point And even in the cold months Where I find, I talk about In the book Jay, the terminating Place for a point in the main Basin. Right. That is where a point Becomes one with the base and you Can no longer distinguish the Point from the area around it. And it's a big thing. It’s a big thing. Money. Absolute money in the cold-water Period. Where that mid-break is Where the cover starts. So, You know, muskies are a shallow Water edge animal. Right. The surface is the end. The bottom is the edge. But structure provides an outside And the edge is the edge. Is not the propensity to be In cover. But to be on the transition Adjacent to the cover. And that's what hit me in the head This week. So, Hear me out again. Because you know That channel I'm talking about Small Lake. Right. There’s a place on Eagle Lake Where I have caught scuds of Big fish. And I looked at the topography And I did a live image of A holy crap. They're not coming off the edge Of that. They're coming off the Edge of the channel for things That are entering and exiting That cover. Right. so, in some capacity. It’s not about cover as cover For the musky. It’s about exploiting the Fact that muskies know other Fish cover. Whoa. Right.
Mm-hmm.
So, I’ve set it before. Again, it’s Sometimes you have thoughts And maybe they're right. Maybe they're wrong. I'm trying to realign out. I think about it. So, a walleye, Jay, is a hunter. Can we agree on that?
Yeah.
That's a predator. There they are. So how does a Hunter hunt a hunter? He knows where he's going to be To hunt his prey. Right. Literally the movie Predator. Right. So, we're going to do Walleye hunting smaller Baitfish and muskies hunting Walleye. And he knows what a walleye Is going to do based on what they Do. And the walleye I know he's going to do based on What he's eating in parish or Whatever it is. So down the food chain How they Establish their positioning Is a direct corollary To what's conducive to their feeding. And when you think about the number of fish you will Pull out of outside edges. I’ve heard it for years. I'm going to talk about The whole idea that fish the Outside edges of weeds bullshit. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is The structural outside edges Might be far more important than The edges of comfort. Right. Because who's to say You threw it a weed bed And your Bonus position? For example, Jim Stewart's big fish a couple of years ago on that same Like I'm talking about, right Jay? There’s the weed edge. Remember that comment? There’s the weed edge. Halfway back If not three-quarters away Back he gets smoked Was that fish on the weed edge? Or was it on the outside edge Expecting things to come in out of that weed bed? You see what I'm saying?
Totally.
And when you’re going to be, Totally. And what I'm seeing as far as My record keeping is I’m pulling fish out of Edges But am I pulling out the Structural edge or the cover Edge per se? Now we've all thrown up to Shallow Weeds and smoked a Musky or thrown a Suick or thrown a Titan Or thrown something or a topwater, right? I’m going to be flying in August Forget it. But when we get cold edges we get things that slack And down, right? Everything kind of slides off So if a Musky doesn't want to be up in the slop Where’s he going to be Jay? The structural anomaly leading in, Leading out, or adjacent to Cover Until that cover is gone or non-productive And what I'm getting at And I really thought about What matters as I've always heard For years good boat positioning Catch more Muskies or This, that, and the other catch More Musky. So, what I'm conceptualizing Is this is The thing I've said for years Which is back off, go low and slow In cold fronts, right? We’re throwing at weed edges or edges Or the bathymetry, the topography of a body of water For whatever that's worth We’re throwing at the structure But by going low and slow Are we contouring Specifically the outside edges More importantly than the tight edges Right? That’s the question And I personally think That it is There’s a modicum of Willy Nilly who gives a rat In the summer months, right Jay? Throw blades over slop over weeds Forget about it But that is one-fourth of a year Say three months is one-fourth, right? The rest of the time We need to be far more focused On the structural connectivity To feeding zones Than we need to be on the cover That we're relating to Because the cover is a mutually safe space For all predators Which it was looking at like When do I catch muskies off Reefs in Canada Jay? Low light periods in the evening Guess why? Because while eyes are coming up For the majority of the time I’ve caught some mid-dayers. You always have things Around the outside of the curve, right? But muskies are stage And anticipation of A fish one notch down the food chain, Right? So, How does the entire food chain stage Well in cold fronts Everything backs off, Right? And it's one of these things I was thinking about. So, Imagine if you will this call or Jay
Mm-hmm
And heal yourselves in the waters of Lake Minnetonka
Lake Minnetonka, right?
Dig if you will this picture
So, this is stupid but Allow me the latitude
Sure.
So, me, you, Fred, and Tom, We all hold hands and stick our arms out, right? We’re like hands across America Like idiots. Well And Tom's touching the wall of the musky shop There are four grown men Touching the wall of the musky shop So it goes, Tom, Fred, me, you We’re going from right to left here folks So Tom is touching a wall On your right-hand side Four grown men with their arms extended Fingers interlocked Because they're not afraid to express love So, Tom's touching the wall. Tom is A minnow, Right? Fred is a crappie
Ooh
I am a walleye You are the warrior, Pat Benatar You’re a musky, right? So, we're all out here We’re holding hands Arm extended, right? The two smaller guys are closer to the edge And it gets bigger as we go So Tom, Fred, me, Jay Our arms are interlocked As Tom wants to back away from that wall We all back away in a Commensurate distance Think about the...You see what I'm saying? If we're interlocked Now sometimes We will fold Because it becomes easier, Right? We truncate the food chain But in general, what I'm seeing From looking at 30 freaking years And notation And pontification is the Food chain moves At a Commensurate distance, Jay, So, if our arms are outstretched We’ve interlocked fingers Because we're completely comfortable It’s 2024, right? And maybe me and Jay Cuddle Maybe we don't...We move off the edge together At the same distance, we move in together You see what I'm saying here? Do you see where I'm going with this? Batman?
Yeah, the food chain's locked in Of course it is
It's locked in proximity So; Dr. Bob wrote an article Hold on
Get shot
Now I was just making noise Because I'm dumb, so Dr. Bob, God bless him, He's not a real doctor And his real name's not Bob
Close enough
Hold on. I asked him what his real name was. He said Bob stands for Babes on Board Jay, But he's a real doctor. He's a real doctor
Okay
So, there's this article in the app. It says the Muskies environment And he's touching on what we've talked about in the past Which is light angles and how far things sub-10, right? And what a musk is visual ranges
Okay
So, from a logical standpoint What I'm talking about Is this entire hands across America This food chain moving is one Well guess what? Muskies neatly know the distance they need to be from their prey To be successful So to wall I, so to perch So to panfish, everything moves as a grid In and out The ebb and flow. It hit me like a brick this week, Jay The ebb and flow Of shallow, mid to deep commensurate measurable and marketed, and even At a certain point Everything ends up on the bottom, right? And their distribution Between the dead bottom and up on the bank Is always an even endeavor The more stable it is The tighter they get The more awful it is The tighter they get to the bottom stability and awful Are great Because we know exactly where they are The ebb and flow The ebb and flow of daily weather Barometric pressure Frontal movements dictate The distances between these two points in space Right, so Baitfish are at 8, Muskies are at 15Baitfish are one foot You see what I'm saying? It’s just like You’ll find this distribution That makes sense Everyone’s doing their job So Muskies are Gatekeeping the outside Edges, walleyes are coming up at night Perch are doing what they do Everyone is doing their job in the ecosystem And they move And flux Based upon those frontal movements They’re seasonal movements So in the winter that seasonal movement Is smaller And the tighter lines And the summer it's broader In shallower bays And it really Makes sense when we talk about How have I been successful? How have you been successful? How Bucher’s been successful in tough conditions? What do we do? Low and slow and big cast and for office structure Why does that work? Well, there's nothing up on the first 15 feet of the bank, And the next day things are better And everything shifts up And there's an hour of chaos Where everything's up shallow And it shifts offhand shifts off And shifts off You see what I'm saying? Mamas got a squeeze box Daddy never sleeps at night
Nope
So, it's truncated It’s squeezed in the morning It expands during the day And it squeezes the night And the summer if things are perfect Makes sense?
Who?
Who? Who?
Who?Who?Who?
Anyway, That’s just the way I'm conceptualizing it Right now maybe I suck But it’s You know when I say the Deep waters are a refuge for muskies And so I'm trying to be In my own head, To be honest with you guys Cause it's a different concept And there's some people This sounds dumber than hell Say it Jay Steve Paul sucks dumber than Hell. Anyway, Here's my concept It’s not a title movement of water It’s a climactic Conditional seasonal Tied of predation Tied of predation Which is my band We are tied of predation Where things move in Things move outright And it hit me and was thinking about Somebody asked me, okay What’s this solar-lunar crap RightAnd he asked me As barn swallows Where the heck they are pounding bugs On the top of the water right and the terrestrial insects Are hashing based on timing And everything Metriculates down the food chain and muskies make a movie right? Read the book That’s my take on it Where solar lunar things are happening That time out the Ebb and flow of nature Whereas the shifting Of things Is a moving focus I’ve been saying I’m just blowing my mind Which is like Speed is little off I hate to say this I screwed up and probably missed Thousands of fish by going Too slow in bad conditions I did Depth and speed Depth presentations do not necessarily Have to be slow in bad conditions So the game becomes What’s the level of light penetration That the baseline The core of the food chain Is willing to begin I’m seeing it And I've seen it this spring Bug hatches on Great looking days Great looking muskie days I guess where they're happening Super shallow edge scrappy days like today You know And I'm seeing the birds And I'm watching these birds And they're predating it Sort of hitting like an idiot. Well, huh, I bet you everything's behind me Because the bugs are Popping off 15 feet off the edge And the birds are predating there Yesterday when we cut a monster Shallow, that was happening in the Shallows. What does it matter? We've talked about barometric pressure has little bearing If you want to come on and debate me on that Bring it I can pop my ears into a sandwich Or a frickin' pierogi on any plane there is And I'm asking you to do the same They’re not going to starve to death Because barometric pressure influences them negatively Bullshit, right? So as the food chain shifts Are we shifting Our approach to our presentations and augmenting them to the appropriate depth So yesterday it was Magnus prototypes, right? At mid-depth burnt Which is the big swimbait I’m working on Today, it was As much way to get on a MagnusBurnt25 feet further off the edge, Right? So instead of The food chain being shallow And littoral, The food chain started on the very edge of the littoral zone Into the contact points of the main basin And that's what I'm getting Beginning points and end points So the very tip of the iceberg Might end at the shoreline And end with the musky25 feet You see what I'm saying, Jay? Am I just ruining the show?
See the last one again? What was the last one?
The tip of the iceberg, right? Being Zooplankton, photo plankton, Whatever the hell you got The very core of the food chain Might be on the shoreline
Sure
But the bottom of the pyramid, right? Right? Or flip it around, however, you want to look at it The top and bottom tiers of the food chain Have a distance, right? So, if there's a bug spawn On the extreme edge The muskies are on the outside edge They might truncate during that weird summer time But the vast majority of the time There’s a spacing Between the food chain Muskies don't want to get up Where the bugs are hatching To scare off all the perch That the walleyes are bringing in That the muskies intend to eat Think about that
No
Right? If muskies want to eat walleye They’re not going to circumvent The other two stages of the food chain
Right?
It's not smart Now they're not going to They’re not smart Now they're not smart creatures But they have eons of programming Or divine creation Everyone will look at it They’re not dummies They’re really good at what they do Right? Which is like Jay wants to go get some Frickin' pasta, Spangs. Well, guess what you don't do slash your own tires and go Why can't I get there? Whoa, whoa, my tires are gone
Right?
A musky doesn't run up and pick off The two-inch minnows are eating The frickin' bug hatch The perch are eating that the walleye are eating It’s the truncation Of the food chain Anyway I don't know shit
Interesting
Yeah, whatever, I'm right
That makes sense I’ve lost my mind if I thought about it too much
You've got to figure that Any part of the food chain is not going to sabotage it To make things more difficult They just don't play that way They’re not wired that way They’re wired to survive
Fish aren't wired to cheat
Mm-hmm
I'm just watching I’ve spent way too much time on a bow I said it before I woke up my captain license I was like, oh my goodness, the amount of time I spent on a bow Is just vulgar, Um, And you watch it and you watch where a musky come from You go, okay Super shallow, not so shallow Outside edge, inside edge Why does it change every day? And I'm watching these birds I’m going, well that's the absolute Whether You make your little Illuminati pyramid with your fingers Food pyramid, whatever Whether you call it the top or the bottom Or whatever it is Where that line is Where that edge is Everything is commensurately staged to it. So, Let me put it this way, Yesterday I said it before But these barn swallows, Or whatever the heck they are They’re feeding Jay in the muck Right off the six inches of water
Mm-hmm
And we get up there and we're making 40-foot cast To the very outside edge of weed bed. Schmackety wackety, Monster trophy in the net, right? Wonderful Well guess what I try to do Let’s do the same thing today, right? I go, well the birds are behind me What am I doing? Back it off the same distance If not a tick further and guess what we start seeing We start seeing muskies So there is a
That’s cool.
And here's my thought Everybody can Whatever Mark it on your calendar because a bunch of people Are going to think I'm dumb. There's the bottom Of the lake There’s a surface of the lake There’s the edges of the lake There’s a light edge of the lake, right? So, we've got bottom, side, surface Light penetration The fifth edge is bait penetration Where is the bait staging in the lake? At the baseline of your forage base Is the fifth edge Where bait begins Is your fifth edge When you explore the structure Adjacent to that It’s where you find muskies I’ll go down swinging on this When I'll fight you to the nail Which is We’ve always said there's four edges And you've got three, right? So, you've got bottom, side, and surface Me and Herbeck have always talked about Light penetration Beautiful. The fifth edge Is the food chain edge commensurate to the surface Edge, light penetration Once you understand what these five edges are Now you know where it begins The process goes in or out. So, Once we understand so Side, top, surface, and light Forage edge Now we can work our way back To where the apex predator is Who’s going to be on the outside edge exploiting fish that Are coming into this bait edge That’s influenced by light, surface Side and bottom
Mm-hmm
That I think is Where I'll shut up and we’ll do Q&A
There you go
Alright, J. Bird David What do you think about Fish attraction sprays like garlic Or shit or some other flavor Dr. Juice The juice is loose If you ain't juice, and are you even dry
Hmm
What do you think, J? Are you a juicer?
Well, don't get caught juicing That’s what I'm saying Do it in secret on the side
Yeah, you gotta be like Barry Bonds I’ve been thinking about it a little bit before
I mean, I don't think it can hurt If you had a bottle of Dr. Juice Try some on there It’s going to mask human odors and Bug spray and Suntan lotion, whatever else You know, mayonnaise on your sandwich, And all that stuff, so
I wouldn't...
Here's the deal We’ve talked to Andrew Walker in the past Some of these people were Coldwater, scent matters Warm conditions, it doesn't seem to matter And then I’ve seen people in Canada Where they're taking walleye guts And dipping their bulldogs in them And they swear about it
Okay
So, to each their own I try to avoid You said sunscreens A couple of things, right? Number one, bug spray will stain the plastic On your electronics So if you spray OFF or anything with DEET in it The black plastic on your electronics Is going to get little white speckles On it So, I avoid that Number two is sunscreen I attempt to not get on my hands I don't want it on my hands Because at a certain point That stuff is waterproof, sweat proof And it's probably a negative impact At the end of the day, Right? For lack of a...I would hate to like put sunscreen on my hands Grab a bait Throw it out and miss the fish of a lifetime You’re going, the sunscreen wasn't it? At least be it a baseline or a neutral I don't think in the summer months The sun is going to help you Maybe during cold water periods It’s the benefit But if you're using sunscreen Or you're doing this or you're doing that It can't hurt Some people swear by it, some people don’t I’m kind of chaotic neutral on it If I'm using something to block the sun Or bug spray It’s since not the worst thing You can always be juicing, they say
Maybe, you know, like you're right In the cold-water periods And you're going to have to fish a little bit Or you're slowing down And they're giving a little bit more thought And effort into, you know, identifying What they're going to be about to eat Maybe it would have a better impact When they're just, you know, flat-out reactive
No, when they're flying around, Yeah, when they're flying around
I doubt it, yeah
I mean, back in the days, to think about Here, we'd stop our boats You’d stop your big old mercury Blue band when I was doing it And I heard my Yamaha And there's a little rainbow behind your boat Of oil
Mm-hmm
From your exhaust, you know, is that good or bad? I mean, that was just the nature of a two-struck There was a little rainbow behind the boat
Absolutely
So, you know, it’s I don't worry about it tremendously However, cold water period, I'm going to think about it
Greg, hey man, love the show It’s wondering as a fellow music lover What do you think about listening to music while fishing? Would it always spook them? Could the vibration possibly get their attention, Jay, what is a musky's favorite song?
Probably any old ACDC
I would say that
They like to rock
For those about to fish, we salute you
True
Thunderstruck, you know, I'm coming, you know, you know, Storms rolling in, I mean, forget about it
They're also massive Billy Squire fans
Right, right
I found that like, I would rather have a Billy Squire record on the Doctor's use
Sure
Stroke me, stroke me
Exactly, that's it
Mm-hmm
It doesn't matter, we pound around in the boat When you're talking in the boat, it resonates into the water If they were spooky, or if you're on really spooky fish, don’t Have music on, you're trolling letters doing enough chaos down there Making enough commotion wouldn't worry about its Jay said his favorite musky song is Five Minutes Alone by Pantera, I believe
He spoke
Mm-hmm
Anyway
Jim wants to know, if the Christmas tree color is still available from Bucher or BucherTail Tinsels.
I don't know, do you know Jay? You're the bait man
Christmas tree color I believe the Black Chartreuse is nicknamed Christmas tree So anything color 15, which is Black Chartreuse Color Christmas tree
There you go So if you, and they offer that, and what?
501s, 701s, 851s, lots
There you go
So, if it's color 15, Black Chartreuse, that is a Christmas tree OH Christmas tree
Oh, Christmas Tree Yeah
Hey Jay, can you guys talk about the Livingston Lures bulldozer? It looks a lot like a Super Shad Rap, which is a bait I love throwing But the Raps are super cheap and delicate and they fall apart all the time How’s the Bulldozer comparable? Thanks for making the podcast every week, we try AJ, So I was not involved in that bait, that was before my tenure with them It is very similar to a Shad Rap, it works Very similar to a Shad Rap, it's hard plastic and indestructible That’s all I'll say, so It’s a Shad Rap that just won't break, not my cup of tea
And a little bigger
Again, slightly, I'm not saying again I’m not big into just cloning It’s a good bait Don’t get me wrong, check one out, it'll do you well, Donald Okay, he wants to know about the Picifun Reels Jay. Don wants to know about the Picifun Reels I’ve heard a bunch about these, and I've heard mixed bags from I have some clients that are great anglers that love them, some people that bomb that hate them We don't carry them, it's not the worst thing ever That we don't have them, they sell direct consumer and they sell directly from China via Amazon And that's it, that's not a knock, that's a flat fact, right? It is an inexpensive reel I would say, when I've looked at reels that are not Daiwa, Shimano, Abu Garcia, dominant companies, pin, whatever they might be They become disposable, you can't repair them, and once they break, they're just done And user experience seems to vary with those We’ve looked at these before, we've looked at budget reels, you look at this, okay, if we buy a thousand of them How many are coming back? Not gonna say the number, but you look at it, and you go There are good ones, there are bad ones, there's everything in between I’m not gonna say don't do it, I'm not gonna say do it, I'm just gonna go Be prepared, you might have a great one, you might have a bad one, you might have a wonderful experience I know guys, one guy that likes those reels, I'm thinking of right now Dude had problems with Shimano, and went to those, he's like I love these reels I don't have problems with Shimano's, but he did, and he's like cool, it's a cool reel I mean a reel's a reel, does it turn the line, does it do it effectively, and does it drag good? That’s it, so whatever that looks like to you, I'm not gonna say it's good, I'm not gonna say it's bad I’m not gonna say if you were to get a bad one, your user experience might be far worse than somebody that gets a good one, more on that later, you know, it's one of these deals where it's such a Wild Wild West thing, who knows where that wind up, Kyle, where should I look, where should I start looking for places to perform my three-point check when I launch my boat? So, if you don't want to have a three-point check, as I talk about Next Level I’m asking you fishing where we look for baitfish, shallow mid-deep, which kind of rifts on the crazy rant I went on earlier about where a baitfish stage and where is the food chain? You’re gonna look at structural elements, Does it cover structure, what matters to you like? We’re going to find a dominant cover structure, primarily, shallow, then we're gonna find deviate, dominant cover, slash structure mid, and then we're gonna find a dominant structure deep, right? Outside of the literal zone, so find you a shallow mid and deep zone that perennially have baitfish, you might have to drive around the lake, you go, wow, there's always bait fish here, wow, there's always bait fish here You’re not gonna do them one afternoon, right? Be observant at all times, Amanda, what's up with the overarching male names from Musky Lures, they seem a little misogynistic, showgirls, cowgirls, slightly sexist, whoa!
Slightly?
Slightly?
- I'll lay a bam, we don't pre-screen. What do you think, J?
Well, yeah, it's part of the tongue-in-cheek humor of the month, it's always been, that's just history. And, um, yeah, we made history, a little bit, you know, with some, you know, PG-rated made-up names, and we've gone further in the car rides before.
Yeah, it is, man.
If you remember back?
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, oh, yeah, Margie. OH, yeah, Margie. OH, yeah, Margie.
You slapping fun, there eh?
On with, um, Amanda, thank you for listening. Yes. Fishing has always tended to be misogynistic. I apologize for that. My wife is a great angler. She was actually on the water today. Don’t give a man the opportunity to name something close to or near a phallus. That's just the nature of the game, boys. I mean, I'm sorry. It just is what it is. You know, um,
Well, yeah, I mean, look at Jodie Michael, I mean, she didn't name her both the Big Johnson. She named it the Gray Squirrel.
You're an, you know, you're going to get in trouble. She's got to read the transcript in your world of hurt. No, it's not a matter. I don't think it's a matter of, let me back it up as a representative for the male musky faction. I don't think it's a matter of misogyny. It's a matter of reverence and appreciation. You think I'll fly Jay? No, well, okay. It's a good attempt. We're trying. I'm buying it. I'm buying it. Anyway, it just is what it is. Boys are idiots. I don't think anything means any harm. I don't think at this point, I'm not trying again. I'm not political. I'm like the most neutral political person. There is. I don't care. I don't have time for it. But I don't feel like there's anybody in the musky industry that's trying to be offensive, right, or derogatory. So, if there's something you find that is apropos towards a gender, take it as a compliment, right? It's not a matter of negative or positive. It is an adoration. And that's why I would look at it right now. I, I, I, most of these people really get people and it just is what it is. And you come up with a dumb name and you call it is what it is.
Derek, how do you deal with wind during the summer months? Nose in, nose out. How do you control your drift? Jay, that's a loaded question. Thank you anyway, Derek. So, depending on how you're fishing, what you're fishing. So, the wind in your drift is going to dictate how you address it. So, let's say we're in a cold front and we need to get off the deep edge like we're talking about earlier. We need to go low and slow, whatever that might look like, right? Well, slow presentations are hard in a quick drift. Right. So, are we going to spot lock and is the bait going to be carried away? Is it going to be carried up from us away from us towards us? We’ve got to think about two things at one time. How do I control my boat to the best of my ability where it does not negatively impact my presentation? So, vote control and presentation. So, if it's a straight retrieve bait and it gets behind the boat, let's say we're on bucktails and they get behind the boat, Jay, right? And the boat's moving forward because of the drift. Guess what happens? They rise. If we're drifting towards a bait, we have more slack line to contend with. So, all we need to think about is this boat control is a secondary consideration to what presentation we're attempting to do. Right. If we're ripping and pulling rubber, we might advance toward the bait and just pick up the line quicker. Well, we know, OK, it's got this right of fall. I’m back at it. I'm really into it where we don't want to drag baits and lift them. We don't want to go towards baits and run them too deep. We want to make sure our boat is not negatively influencing our running depth.
Absolutely.
Secondly, we want to make sure our boat control allows us to competently cover an area. So, we talked about how muskies see, muskies smell, muskies feel, all this stuff. Well, in the grand scheme of things in typical lighting considerations, they'll sub-tend just a very short distance. So, we don't want to cast land on a hundred feet apart. So, you've got to look at your boat control from a matter of this. Is it a matter of I do this drift multiple times or is it a matter I do this drift one time with utmost control, but it doesn't negatively affect my baits? Or do I do this drift 30 times because I'm drifting six miles an hour because the wind's blowing this way, but I can still work my bait appropriately? How you do it doesn't matter what matters is how your boat control influences your presentation and the spacing of your presentations over structure to your positive holds Muskies. That’s it.
Right.
It's a simple answer for a very complex question where you might need to talk I think I talked about last week we use a drift sock in the Netherlands right just gonna say that that's okay and I'm bringing that back. There’s one of my boats again that was brilliant hadn't done that in a while. We’re gonna spot lock well is spot locking causing my baits to rise because I'm holding? You've got to address all the factors it is running depth running depth running depth running depth number one. What is my target zone? What is my target running depth? Now is my current boat positioning drift or lack of drift influencing that positive way or negative way?
Yeah and check your speed. I mean if you're going a half mile an hour or faster. It’s more difficult to fish precisely and effectively. It just flat-out is.
Yeah, where you could.
With that, you could point your troll and motor into the wind and then you know run it at half speed to slow down your drift but let's again that's an art form.
But let's say this. Let's say we got a mile and a half-drift right from the wind. That’s clipping, right? Well, if Muskies are tight to an edge guess what it's easy. Closer to the shoreline truncates the amount of cast short cast bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam right. You can't always make bomb casts. If you think about it have a mile and a half drift. Your cast lands hugely apart from one another. Do we need to do this a million times over? Or do we tighten to the edge where no Muskies are at? Now you go well how do I know where that's at? Well, that goes back to structure fishing that goes back to seasonality and it goes back to a million other factors. Let’s just assume you know the rest of the Muskies are on an eight-foot brake line and I've got a mile and a half drift. I know I need to be. Three-quarters of a decent cast off with two angles or I can be further off with three anglers. It’s coverage so both controls become coverage and people say good boat control catches Muskies what they're saying and if you distill it down in the core of what really is being articulated nobody ever articulates this crap because it’s Muskie fishing. Good boat control means good casting control good casting control means coverage good coverage means good presentation which means more Muskies strikes.
Yeah, and if you got two or three anglers in the boat and you're moving it you can go faster, and that will pay attention to where those casts are landing and fish the spaces.
I tell everybody at this point if our cast I don't care if we got three to four people in the boat. If our cast or space is more than five feet apart we're going to tighten it up.
Mm hmm.
I want five-foot gaps. Three days ago, Jay, we’ve got three people throwing. I was actually in the back of the boat And I ended up hooking a fish because the guy in the front and the guy in the middle kept leading I said bring him in straight in straight in straight in straight in. Well, they're providing 25-foot gaps I'm going to go straight in working straight in working. The front of the boat and back of the boat don't matter to me as much as good coverage. Right? If Muskies were incensed and losing their minds 100% of the time it would always be a front of the boat the first bait the lands cast we wouldn't be talking. We’d be like guys here's how you catch a musky go out to the lake throw the first cast and turn the handle you got it. The end of podcast episode one is five minutes long. Right. Done. When actuality it is proper presentation proper speed proper depth of presentation proper size of presentation proper retrieve proper angle of retrieve proper relation to sun proper relation to seasonality. So why are we blaring through places where positive muskies are and where positively had the right presentation on. But we’re blaring through leaving 40-foot gaps.
It's not effective. Not at all.
Something does not all scream for years not all of the fish are in front of the boat. When I fish and Jay's done it you see me in a video standing in front of the boat. Why is the guide in the front of the boat? Guess who else did that Okay Joe Bucher. Joe Bucher gets out of the front of the boat and he goes it's got a guide cast and client cast. And people look at you like you're nuts. If I cut you off and tell you not to cast over me I can control your coverage area. Right. I can make a short little cast where people don't even realize you're doing it. That's the funny thing. Don’t care if you're an aspiring guide or think about this or say you've got a son or you've got a friend you were trying to get him a musky. We’re fishing weed if I make casts are not hitting the edge but I'm bopping out there I can control you. Because everyone wants to throw at some 45-degree angle away from the nose of the boat and show how far they can cast who cares? You can truncate the flow of a boat from the nose. When I'm in the back of the boat I'm actually cherry-picking more when in the back than in the front. Right. In the front of the boat, you're throwing a bait that might be a 10% odds but you're slowing the pace with baits that are behind me that are high odds. And you're keeping people don't cast past me just so straight in off yourself. Square up to the gunnel of the boat and so straight ahead of you. If people are throwing straight ahead they're covering more and you can dictate the flow of the boat as opposed to having people in the nose of the boat launching bombs that are hitting nothing. That’s the way I look at it what's more important to me is I'm riffing like the hierarchy but let's just think about it. Okay, so how do we find a musky? Okay first and foremost let's look at seasonality. Wonderful. So what seasonality are they in and what depth does that seasonality dictate? Wonderful. That seasonality dictates X, Y, and Z depth therefore it dictates these presentations. Great. At what speed are these presentations effective? Fantastic. What coverage and vibrational profiles do those baits have? Those dictate how fast we can move through an area. Right. Effectively. Now weather influences that and we have to augment our boat control to complement that hierarchy of needs or decisions. That’s it. So how fast do we drift? How slow do we drift? What do we do for boat control? Answer all those questions and then how you control your boat is a non-starter. So exactly how you need to control your boat. Are my bulldogs getting behind my boat and rising in the water column? That needs to slow things down with the drift, sock, or spot lock. Are my baits getting ahead of my boat? I need to drive faster and then cover this area multiple times to make sure I have absolute coverage.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah is the wind pounding the shore I'm fishing? So instead of trying to parallel, should I drift in and then come back out and restage and drift into the shoreline multiple times? Right. So sideways. How you drive your boat is wholly dictated by the presentations in a season out of your trying to present. That’s it. People go, I drive my boat like this. Well, guess what they do Jay. They put that sun of a gun on five all summer long and throw bucktails at a 45-degree bangle behind the in front of the boat. They get three cars away through the blade lift. They come into their lousy figure eight and they throw them again. And the winter comes and guess what they do the same thing. And if the wind's blowing they crank it up and they get this thing where all the baits end up behind the boat. So, I want my bait in a perfect world. Thrown in front of myself in a slight angle. So, the center of my body is noon and I'm square up with the gun on my throat at one o'clock and it comes in at eleven or two. It comes in at eleven or twelve slightly down from where I'm moving based on the drift of my trolling motor. And I come in for a very natural controlled depth figure eight. Right. You've been on my boat where we're drifting into a spot and I'm constantly working the trolling motor in reverse to hasten our arrival. Right. Or I'm working nose in I'm working the boat backward where we're looking for the most natural presentation with controlled depth. What’s the point of having a deep presentation this is what kills me. A crankbait starts shallow because it lands at the water they're boiling at most of them right Jay.
Yeah.
They land and they’re shallow. They’re floating throw a death rate it hits the water it floats. You crank it down and start getting depth. So, for the first 10% of the cast, we're working down to 75% of the running depth. And now 25% of the cast were at max running depth. Now we're coming back up in a C shape. Now if the boat's dragging it forward right we made that cast and the boats moving faster as we're reeling up the speeds increasing because where it's physics where we're at first where the baits at. We’re dragging the bait up now. So, we have very little control of speed. And the only things we control in musky fishing or two things speed and depth. Our boat dictates that heavily based on a relationship with cover and structure. And that is augmented nonstop by climactic conditions. Big wind harder boat control harder control your harder control your presentation. So, you know Jay we've seen it before together. You’re in winds that are so rocking and rolling. The boat is bobbing up four feet. Well, guess what you're losing on your casts four feet. What do you do? Now if you have a target depth of 12 feet and you're losing four feet from four-foot rollers which is scary. We need to add weight that gets us four more feet of depth.
Mm hmm. Right.
Now the next time I fish four footers I will be on my couch watching people do I'm never doing it again. But if you're bobbing up two feet regularly guess what you gotta do. Add lead or add weight that gets you two more feet of depth. Because the conditions on the surface are augmenting your running depth as much as your advancement or lack of advancement of how you're augmenting your baits. I see it so often where Jay the same link we're talking about neighbor Steve's place. We go behind a boat I count the number of casts they make. I can't imagine figure-eighting with the boat on six.
Yeah.
You've seen it. Go through space. Okay, the bait hits. Think about this. I’m just freaking down around the hole today. Sorry. Bait hits boom. Most casts I'm trying to think of it. Let's call it a 25-second 30-second presentation right? So, if 30% of 30 seconds is in where muskies need to be you only have 10 seconds in front of fish. Think about that. How long is your retrieve Jay in my circumstances? You make a cast? Is it 30 45 seconds that baits out?
Yeah probably.
Let's be generous 45 seconds. Well, it hits the water and it's got to get to the running depth or be where you want it to be. Takes a few seconds. Let’s shave 5. It's got 40.Right.And you hit running depth from second six to 25 and now your boat's dragging it up because you're drifting correct? I mean it's a percentage game. So, if a 45-second cast and only 20% of it's in the zone where muskies are habituating or where they can see. So, we're for only 10%, 20% of a 45-second cast we are at the right structural depth, the right cover depth. We are at the right level of light penetration, the right edge of bait fish. How much are we effective throughout the course of the day? Super low number. You might make a thousand casts but let's say a thousand casts or you know 4500 seconds. So, for 458, 900 seconds out of the day I'm just horrible math. Let’s say you make a thousand casts right? They’re 45 seconds.
Yeah, I mean if two-thirds of your time is inefficient, ouch. You gotta adjust.
You gotta adjust. That’s what I'm getting at. Smart poker here. Anyway, Jay. I’ve run my mouth. I’ve gone down the rabbit hole. I could sit here and just blast on forever. Some might say right on Jay. Right on.
Are you sure?
Right on. Anyway, guys, I'll see you this coming weekend at Musky Odyssey in Canada. Monday. Me and Jay will do the podcast because I'll be out there drinking Pepsi with my Canadian bros. Anyway, Jay Bird, say good night. Good night everybody. Thank you. Later.